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> But the tone of the rest of the article smells of a certain kind of conservative smugness that it is your individual responsibility for improving your own sit

by blagie 2y ago

> But the tone of the rest of the article smells of a certain kind of conservative smugness that it is your individual responsibility for improving your own situation. This is absolutely correct but he discredits “community leaders” and students who “had little in common with others other than how they looked” and specifically calls out defunding the police. Most liberals discount conservative beliefs because of how they "smell," and vice-versa. That's toxic and discriminatory. It's helpful to look at arguments on a case-by-case basis, than rather with which cultural pattern it lines up. Listen to what the dude is saying, rather than whether he identifies with blue team or red team. FWIW, in this case, I think both sides are right: 1) If people don't believe it's their own individual responsibility to improve their situation, they will never do so. One of the best ways to keep people oppressed is to give a sense of inevitability and hopelessness, exactly as the liberals do here. 2) The system is racist (in ways and degrees most conservatives, and indeed, even few liberals, will acknowledge), and we ought to fix that. That involves organizing and discussion. I'll give an example of a problem is those discussion, in my (liberal) school start in kindergarten, well before kids can organize, but well after they can feel hopeless and victimized. We have resources like these being used there: https://www.wokekindergarten.org/ https://www.wokekindergarten.org/ By the time they're done with it, you see kids splitting up into privileged and disadvantaged groups, exactly as you see in the Robbers Cave Experiment. It was fascinating to watch, as my child had friends all over the spectrum: * Going in, my child didn't remember the skin color of other kids. * Coming out, he had a clear racial construct, but kids who were Indian, Chinese, etc. were lumped together as "white." The issues with liberals aren't specific to 18-22 year old students, as it's happening with perfectly adult teachers and administrators. And yes, there is a complete disconnect between wealthy liberals trying to virtue-signal, and the communities they pretend to want to help.

aaplok 2y ago
> there is a complete disconnect between wealthy liberals trying to virtue-signal, and the communities they pretend to want to help. There is a disconnect between wealthy people and poor people regardless of political views. It's convenient to call out the hypocrisy of the rich liberals, but that doesn't make the conservatives a better alternative for the disadvantaged. That's all the more deplorable that the guy from TFA denounces community activists. These people may have an agenda as he says (though not more than any other people publicly involved in politics), but most of them are presumably from the community they defend. Who else would represent the poor communities otherwise?
- blagie 2y ago
  I believe I made almost all of my claims completely symmetric. > but most of them are presumably from the community they defend This is not the case. Most woke activism comes from rich, white, progressives (mostly young), who have close to zero actual experience here. Those voices drown out the voices of people from communities they claim to serve. I've seen many organizations devoted to diversity, equity, and inclusion without a single person from the communities they claim to serve in any leadership position, or in some cases, in the entire organization. Most of those organizations are actively harmful. The one thing I can say is that if you're donating money, see where the people running the place are from, and check 990s for income. If it's e.g. a group of people from a low-income African American community earning $20k-$100k, you can donate, knowing you'll do good. If it's a bunch of Ivy Leaguers who group up in rich communities earning $100k-$1M -- regardless of skin color -- you're probably doing harm. It's also important to keep in mind international representation, and to be mindful of where people come from. A Nigerian who grew up on Victoria Island, or an Indian whose only interaction with poor people is as servants, is likely to be worse than no representation at all. You actually want people from low-income communities representing the diversity of the world.
apantel 2y ago
Smell is usually a great heuristic. If something has a bad smell, it’s probably problematic even if you can’t logically identify the problem.
- blagie 2y ago
  "Smell" is the heuristic which, in practice, led to hiring discrimination against African Americans in the eighties -- in the period where overt discrimination was no longer kosher, but before implicit bias was widely recognized and people tried to compensate for it. There are hundreds of minute differences in behavior, communication style, dress, body language, etc. between middle-upper class white communities and low-income African communities which had no impact on job performance, but massive impact on "smell." That's a major part of the reason there was such a disconnect between African Americans and white Americans about the level of racism in America. It continues to impact many smaller minority groups, which don't quite fit liberal / census DEI slots, to an extreme level. It also almost entirely cuts across the red/blue line in many communities, leading to increased political segregation and polarization. If you read many texts, they will tell you everyone is racist. Congrats! You've just learned one of the ways how you're a racist.

by blagie 2y ago

aaplok 2y ago

> there is a complete disconnect between wealthy liberals trying to virtue-signal, and the communities they pretend to want to help. There is a disconnect between wealthy people and poor people regardless of political views. It's convenient to call out the hypocrisy of the rich liberals, but that doesn't make the conservatives a better alternative for the disadvantaged. That's all the more deplorable that the guy from TFA denounces community activists. These people may have an agenda as he says (though not more than any other people publicly involved in politics), but most of them are presumably from the community they defend. Who else would represent the poor communities otherwise?

blagie 2y ago
I believe I made almost all of my claims completely symmetric. > but most of them are presumably from the community they defend This is not the case. Most woke activism comes from rich, white, progressives (mostly young), who have close to zero actual experience here. Those voices drown out the voices of people from communities they claim to serve. I've seen many organizations devoted to diversity, equity, and inclusion without a single person from the communities they claim to serve in any leadership position, or in some cases, in the entire organization. Most of those organizations are actively harmful. The one thing I can say is that if you're donating money, see where the people running the place are from, and check 990s for income. If it's e.g. a group of people from a low-income African American community earning $20k-$100k, you can donate, knowing you'll do good. If it's a bunch of Ivy Leaguers who group up in rich communities earning $100k-$1M -- regardless of skin color -- you're probably doing harm. It's also important to keep in mind international representation, and to be mindful of where people come from. A Nigerian who grew up on Victoria Island, or an Indian whose only interaction with poor people is as servants, is likely to be worse than no representation at all. You actually want people from low-income communities representing the diversity of the world.

apantel 2y ago

Smell is usually a great heuristic. If something has a bad smell, it’s probably problematic even if you can’t logically identify the problem.

blagie 2y ago
"Smell" is the heuristic which, in practice, led to hiring discrimination against African Americans in the eighties -- in the period where overt discrimination was no longer kosher, but before implicit bias was widely recognized and people tried to compensate for it. There are hundreds of minute differences in behavior, communication style, dress, body language, etc. between middle-upper class white communities and low-income African communities which had no impact on job performance, but massive impact on "smell." That's a major part of the reason there was such a disconnect between African Americans and white Americans about the level of racism in America. It continues to impact many smaller minority groups, which don't quite fit liberal / census DEI slots, to an extreme level. It also almost entirely cuts across the red/blue line in many communities, leading to increased political segregation and polarization. If you read many texts, they will tell you everyone is racist. Congrats! You've just learned one of the ways how you're a racist.