6 ms·

I hope one day the EU will go after Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo. If iOS is a walled garden then consoles are prison.

viraptor 2y ago
iOS only matters in this case, because they have close to monopoly in some areas. But at you listed, in the EU you've got Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, and the whole PC market. Consoles are really not a prison in this case. (I agree the behaviour would be regulated a bit either way. But it's not even close to "prison")
- greenish_shores 2y ago
  They are prison, and it has nothing to do with either regulation or using the laissez-faire approach. You are being sold a computer which is controlled by someone else, even after the sale takes place. That's essentially it. Maybe it would even require no additional regulation, just interpretation of current regulation (the essential basics of civil law, that is) which would make a contract of sale of such device invalid, as you're not controlling it, treating it de-facto more like as a indefinite rent contract.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    > You are being sold a computer Videogame consoles are typically not marketed as general purpose computers. Out of the box, the only thing I can do on my Nintendo Switch is play videogames.
    - greenish_shores 2y ago
      Not even this. It probably has a full-fledged browser pre-installed, making its classification as a general-purpose computer pretty obvious even for an average user, and far less "hackish" than otherwise.
      - surgical_fire 2y ago
        Nintendo Switch doesn't even have an easily accessible Internet browser. In fact, I was not even sure it had one. I had to look it up and found this: https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/how-to-use-hidden-nintendo-switch-browser/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/how-to-use-hidden-ninte... It would be difficult to make a case that the average user would see this as a general purpose computer.
        greenish_shores 2y ago
        Interesting.
        shkkmo 2y ago
        It absolutely is a general purpose computer, one with it's capabilities hidden and restricted from the user.
        surgical_fire 2y ago
        It is a general purpose computer, except the "general purpose" part has been hidden and restricted from the user. Therefore, not a "general purpose" computer anymore.
        shkkmo 2y ago
        It is a general purpose computer running a specialized operating system. Something doesn't stop being a general purpose computer when you change the OS.
    - RunSet 2y ago
      > Videogame consoles are typically not marketed as general purpose computers. Video game consoles have been crippled so that it would be misleading to market them as general purpose computers. However, the videogame industry in its entirety was dead-lifted from its premature grave by one "Nintendo Family Computer".
      - pezezin 2y ago
        > However, the videogame industry in its entirety was dead-lifted from its premature grave by one "Nintendo Family Computer". Consoles maybe, but I don't think that the early 8/16-bit microcomputers were affected by the crash of 1983, and in any case the crash was mostly a US phenomenon with minor effects on other regions.
    - nozzlegear 2y ago
      I don’t think iPhones are marketed as general purpose computers either, yet here we are with the EU now regulating iOS and soon iPadOS.
    - swat535 2y ago
      How is a general purpose computer defined? In any case this argument is moot, the point is that once you purchase something, it's yours and no vendor locks and restrictions should be put on it. You are limiting my choices as a consumer by not letting me access multiple stores or modify the hardware.
  - viraptor 2y ago
    > You are being sold a computer which is controlled by someone else, even after the sale takes place. Sure, but you are in no way forced or pushed to do that. You only do it if you really want to play their exclusive games. It's a completely free choice in a way that choosing a smartphone isn't (due to various apps being close to required for modern life) Don't buy the console. Or buy it and something else as well. It's a very fancy toy.
    - greenish_shores 2y ago
      Well, I'm pretty much okay using fully open Linux called postmarketOS on a smartphone, plus Andbox/Waydroid for (sandboxed!) compatibility with Android apps. That's also a free choice. On pmOS, there's also full KVM virtualization support (works out-of-the-box on most aarch64 devices) for more picky apps, as well.
      - viraptor 2y ago
        You're still essentially using either iOS or Android if you want to interact with many banks. Sometimes they will let you use compatibility layers, sometimes not. (I can't access some bank apps on OxygenOS, which is actual Android)
        greenish_shores 2y ago
        > "if you want to interact" But anyway. I don't want to start the pointless flame war for the milionth time. I think I just have a different definition of "modern life", which is based on using what was considered high-tech not so long ago, like high-throughput radio links and instantaneous worldwide communication (including things like video), without giving up any control. It's not needed to do the abovementioned, so why would I? BTW, 90% of internet services of any kind still serves "web apps". Which is far from perfect, but gives best compatibility and security out of all technologies we've managed to push to very high adoption.
    - shkkmo 2y ago
      > Sure, but you are in no way forced or pushed to do that. You only do it if you really want to play their exclusive games. Personally, I think exclusivity deals need to be banned. The are an inherently anti-competitive practice that does nothing to help consumers. Given that Sony is historically extremely bad about allowing any crossplay, your argument that exclusive games are the only reason people are pushed into buying a PS is false. Gaming is part of many people's social lives and Sony deliberately exploits this to maintain market dominance. Insisting that consumer purchasing decisions are the only or best way to deal with monopolies ignores history and reality.
- gruez 2y ago
  >iOS only matters in this case, because they have close to monopoly in some areas AFAIK at the country level ios market share tops out at around 60%. That's nowhere near a "monopoly".
croes 2y ago
You don't need to buy from MSs, Sony's or Nintendo's store to play a game on their consoles. There was no way for iOS except Apple's App store.
- johncolanduoni 2y ago
  They get a cut of physical media sales too, and studios need their approval for each title they publish.
- flohofwoe 2y ago
  ...unless you have an "all digital" console like the Xbox S.
  - croes 2y ago
    Your choice.
    - vifon 2y ago
      Sounds very similar to the paid data processing opt-out Facebook does now. That actually might be an interesting case.
    - Fraterkes 2y ago
      It's also your choice to buy an Iphone, this kind of reasoning is silly.
      - croes 2y ago
        Nop, iPhone is yes or no, consoles are yes, no or yes but without store. One option more. The hardware enforced only one store
    - TylerE 2y ago
      With the next console generation, it almost certainly won’t be.
s_dev 2y ago
I would make the case the consoles aren't essential for day to day life. They simply aren't general computing devices but have a very specific purpose. They've broaded somewhat to include more media features but few people are securing jobs or submitting government applications on their consoles. It's the fact that modern living simply requires a phone is why the EU is so upset with Apple and Google putting up their garden walls.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  > consoles aren't essential for day to day life Maybe so, but that doesn’t mean they can defraud their users Most the time they break their own Eula, lose customer data, change rules on the fly, etc.
- VyseofArcadia 2y ago
  > I would make the case the consoles aren't essential for day to day life. Doesn't matter. If I truly own the hardware, I should be able to run my own software. Toasters also aren't essential to day to day life. Toaster manufacturers aren't putting sophisticated cryptographic locks on their products to keep me from toasting my own bread.
  - antisthenes 2y ago
    > Toasters also aren't essential to day to day life. Toaster manufacturers aren't putting sophisticated cryptographic locks on their products to keep me from toasting my own bread. Don't give them any ideas. Coffee brewing machines are already there (kind of).
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Whenever someone brings up this nebulous "General Purpose Computer" concept, I challenge them to articulate what makes a phone a general purpose computer, but not a game console. So far I haven't heard a convincing answer. They both have CPUs and typical computer architectures, and can run a wide variety of software. Surely the intention of both smartphone makers and game console makers is that their devices are not made for a "general" purpose, and that (so far) has allowed them to justify locking them down. "Are they essential for day to day life" is a new one. I'm not sure that makes sense either, but I'll give you points for originality! It's also debatable whether phones are essential for day to day life, but we can leave that in another thread.
xyst 2y ago
Apple ecosystem is a prison as well. Just cleverly disguised as a garden :)
- jojobas 2y ago
  More like a cult farmhouse, you're free to leave but won't.
  - VelesDude 2y ago
    I managed to escape, but like a cult it also meant leaving behind a lot of folks that wouldn't come with me.
silverquiet 2y ago
If only the US had some sort of anti-trust laws, then perhaps we wouldn't need to rely on the EU to regulate US companies. To be clear, that is snark because that's how I communicate, however I suppose it could be argued that the laws we have have effectively been neutered through selection of right-wing justices over the last half century or so, and so we are indeed helpless against the ever consolidating megacorps.

iOS only matters in this case, because they have close to monopoly in some areas. But at you listed, in the EU you've got Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, and the whole PC market. Consoles are really not a prison in this case. (I agree the behaviour would be regulated a bit either way. But it's not even close to "prison")

greenish_shores 2y ago
They are prison, and it has nothing to do with either regulation or using the laissez-faire approach. You are being sold a computer which is controlled by someone else, even after the sale takes place. That's essentially it. Maybe it would even require no additional regulation, just interpretation of current regulation (the essential basics of civil law, that is) which would make a contract of sale of such device invalid, as you're not controlling it, treating it de-facto more like as a indefinite rent contract.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  > You are being sold a computer Videogame consoles are typically not marketed as general purpose computers. Out of the box, the only thing I can do on my Nintendo Switch is play videogames.
  - greenish_shores 2y ago
    Not even this. It probably has a full-fledged browser pre-installed, making its classification as a general-purpose computer pretty obvious even for an average user, and far less "hackish" than otherwise.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      Nintendo Switch doesn't even have an easily accessible Internet browser. In fact, I was not even sure it had one. I had to look it up and found this: https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/how-to-use-hidden-nintendo-switch-browser/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/how-to-use-hidden-ninte... It would be difficult to make a case that the average user would see this as a general purpose computer.
      - greenish_shores 2y ago
        Interesting.
      - shkkmo 2y ago
        It absolutely is a general purpose computer, one with it's capabilities hidden and restricted from the user.
        surgical_fire 2y ago
        It is a general purpose computer, except the "general purpose" part has been hidden and restricted from the user. Therefore, not a "general purpose" computer anymore.
        shkkmo 2y ago
        It is a general purpose computer running a specialized operating system. Something doesn't stop being a general purpose computer when you change the OS.
  - RunSet 2y ago
    > Videogame consoles are typically not marketed as general purpose computers. Video game consoles have been crippled so that it would be misleading to market them as general purpose computers. However, the videogame industry in its entirety was dead-lifted from its premature grave by one "Nintendo Family Computer".
    - pezezin 2y ago
      > However, the videogame industry in its entirety was dead-lifted from its premature grave by one "Nintendo Family Computer". Consoles maybe, but I don't think that the early 8/16-bit microcomputers were affected by the crash of 1983, and in any case the crash was mostly a US phenomenon with minor effects on other regions.
  - nozzlegear 2y ago
    I don’t think iPhones are marketed as general purpose computers either, yet here we are with the EU now regulating iOS and soon iPadOS.
  - swat535 2y ago
    How is a general purpose computer defined? In any case this argument is moot, the point is that once you purchase something, it's yours and no vendor locks and restrictions should be put on it. You are limiting my choices as a consumer by not letting me access multiple stores or modify the hardware.
- viraptor 2y ago
  > You are being sold a computer which is controlled by someone else, even after the sale takes place. Sure, but you are in no way forced or pushed to do that. You only do it if you really want to play their exclusive games. It's a completely free choice in a way that choosing a smartphone isn't (due to various apps being close to required for modern life) Don't buy the console. Or buy it and something else as well. It's a very fancy toy.
  - greenish_shores 2y ago
    Well, I'm pretty much okay using fully open Linux called postmarketOS on a smartphone, plus Andbox/Waydroid for (sandboxed!) compatibility with Android apps. That's also a free choice. On pmOS, there's also full KVM virtualization support (works out-of-the-box on most aarch64 devices) for more picky apps, as well.
    - viraptor 2y ago
      You're still essentially using either iOS or Android if you want to interact with many banks. Sometimes they will let you use compatibility layers, sometimes not. (I can't access some bank apps on OxygenOS, which is actual Android)
      - greenish_shores 2y ago
        > "if you want to interact" But anyway. I don't want to start the pointless flame war for the milionth time. I think I just have a different definition of "modern life", which is based on using what was considered high-tech not so long ago, like high-throughput radio links and instantaneous worldwide communication (including things like video), without giving up any control. It's not needed to do the abovementioned, so why would I? BTW, 90% of internet services of any kind still serves "web apps". Which is far from perfect, but gives best compatibility and security out of all technologies we've managed to push to very high adoption.
  - shkkmo 2y ago
    > Sure, but you are in no way forced or pushed to do that. You only do it if you really want to play their exclusive games. Personally, I think exclusivity deals need to be banned. The are an inherently anti-competitive practice that does nothing to help consumers. Given that Sony is historically extremely bad about allowing any crossplay, your argument that exclusive games are the only reason people are pushed into buying a PS is false. Gaming is part of many people's social lives and Sony deliberately exploits this to maintain market dominance. Insisting that consumer purchasing decisions are the only or best way to deal with monopolies ignores history and reality.
gruez 2y ago
>iOS only matters in this case, because they have close to monopoly in some areas AFAIK at the country level ios market share tops out at around 60%. That's nowhere near a "monopoly".

croes 2y ago

You don't need to buy from MSs, Sony's or Nintendo's store to play a game on their consoles. There was no way for iOS except Apple's App store.

johncolanduoni 2y ago
They get a cut of physical media sales too, and studios need their approval for each title they publish.
flohofwoe 2y ago
...unless you have an "all digital" console like the Xbox S.
- croes 2y ago
  Your choice.
  - vifon 2y ago
    Sounds very similar to the paid data processing opt-out Facebook does now. That actually might be an interesting case.
  - Fraterkes 2y ago
    It's also your choice to buy an Iphone, this kind of reasoning is silly.
    - croes 2y ago
      Nop, iPhone is yes or no, consoles are yes, no or yes but without store. One option more. The hardware enforced only one store
  - TylerE 2y ago
    With the next console generation, it almost certainly won’t be.

s_dev 2y ago

I would make the case the consoles aren't essential for day to day life. They simply aren't general computing devices but have a very specific purpose. They've broaded somewhat to include more media features but few people are securing jobs or submitting government applications on their consoles. It's the fact that modern living simply requires a phone is why the EU is so upset with Apple and Google putting up their garden walls.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> consoles aren't essential for day to day life Maybe so, but that doesn’t mean they can defraud their users Most the time they break their own Eula, lose customer data, change rules on the fly, etc.
VyseofArcadia 2y ago
> I would make the case the consoles aren't essential for day to day life. Doesn't matter. If I truly own the hardware, I should be able to run my own software. Toasters also aren't essential to day to day life. Toaster manufacturers aren't putting sophisticated cryptographic locks on their products to keep me from toasting my own bread.
- antisthenes 2y ago
  > Toasters also aren't essential to day to day life. Toaster manufacturers aren't putting sophisticated cryptographic locks on their products to keep me from toasting my own bread. Don't give them any ideas. Coffee brewing machines are already there (kind of).
ryandrake 2y ago
Whenever someone brings up this nebulous "General Purpose Computer" concept, I challenge them to articulate what makes a phone a general purpose computer, but not a game console. So far I haven't heard a convincing answer. They both have CPUs and typical computer architectures, and can run a wide variety of software. Surely the intention of both smartphone makers and game console makers is that their devices are not made for a "general" purpose, and that (so far) has allowed them to justify locking them down. "Are they essential for day to day life" is a new one. I'm not sure that makes sense either, but I'll give you points for originality! It's also debatable whether phones are essential for day to day life, but we can leave that in another thread.

xyst 2y ago

Apple ecosystem is a prison as well. Just cleverly disguised as a garden :)

jojobas 2y ago
More like a cult farmhouse, you're free to leave but won't.
- VelesDude 2y ago
  I managed to escape, but like a cult it also meant leaving behind a lot of folks that wouldn't come with me.

silverquiet 2y ago

If only the US had some sort of anti-trust laws, then perhaps we wouldn't need to rely on the EU to regulate US companies. To be clear, that is snark because that's how I communicate, however I suppose it could be argued that the laws we have have effectively been neutered through selection of right-wing justices over the last half century or so, and so we are indeed helpless against the ever consolidating megacorps.