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I have been meaning for a while now to post about Realpage. I keep seeing how they are causing the market to go higher by collusion. The common thing all the

by Ccecil 2y ago

I have been meaning for a while now to post about Realpage. I keep seeing how they are causing the market to go higher by collusion. The common thing all these companies seem to do (realpage, zillow, etc) is list the rents "that are what other landlords have successfully charged" but there seems to be a shortage of sites which tell potential landlords "what the average renter can afford". In my town for example rents are $1500-3000 for the houses the average renter would rent...but the "average renter" in my area only makes ~$35k/year. This means to live comfortably and have growth they cannot pay more than $1k/mo. Even before Realpage there was the whole "my golf buddy says I am not charging enough...so rent needs to go up". This type of thinking allows "normally ethical" people to act in ways that they may not if they had all the info. If there was a site that said "if you charge more than X you are causing poverty in the community" or "at this average rent the workforce will start to leave the area". I am currently in a town with massive commercial vacancies (commercial units and corporate apartments). Everywhere you go there are for lease signs on long empty (and very nice) buildings. Most businesses in town have now hiring signs (1500 unfilled jobs in the county)...but for some reason unless you are in the declining class it seems everyone has blinders on. What I am asking for is a call to action. I think a site like this can be setup in a way that is factual (using locally done studies from Universities for example). The world needs more "ethical capitalisim"...those involved can make the choice on their own to not hurt others without having to create new laws and restrictions (those only help the corporate landlord). I have faith that the good in people will prevail if we simply stop making it seem like raising rents is just "what you do" even if you don't need to. The 50-100% increase in the most expensive thing most people pay for in their lives can do nothing but drive inflation and push out the workforce. The hopelessness amongst those who "didn't make the cut" is getting bad...you can see it in the eyes of the people. Hackernews...you can make a difference. It is your choice...we can continue making apps/companies that hurt society...or maybe we can make one that "might" help.

phendrenad2 2y ago
I doubt any of the employees of RealPage visit HN. I would guesstimate that probably about 1% of the total software developers worldwide actually visit here.
- Ccecil 2y ago
  Is the implication that only they can make the site? I am confident there are plenty here who could whip a demo up in a weekend.
TheDong 2y ago
Unfortunately, most of these companies have share-holders, and thus the directors of the company have a legal fiduciary duty to the shareholders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_judgment_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_judgment_rule If the directors intentionally forgo profit, they could be criminally liable, even if they do so with the intent of helping the community at the expense of the shareholders. Capitalism is designed, legally designed, to not be ethical, unless "maximizing profit" is your ethical code. Essentially, externalities, like destroying the environment and widening the wealth-gap, are capitalism working as designed. As such, we need specific laws to protect communities and people, though right now "laws" seem rather unpopular in quite a few countries.
- Ccecil 2y ago
  Yes...it is too late for the companies that exist already. No reason we cannot have a non profit counterargument to Realpage. Issue with new laws IMHO is "...the more rules and regulations...the more thieves and robbers..." and it seems to be in the past that more regulations just helps those causing the problem. The issue isn't that we need to remove the landlords...society needs to explain that they are not acting ethically. I would even be happy with just not giving handshakes and back pats to those who act in destructive ways. The average renter in my area makes ~$35k/year...but the average realtor makes $135k (according to glassdoor). At some point this just pushes out the "average".
- hamandcheese 2y ago
  The linked article seems to contradict what you are saying. > In effect, the business judgment rule creates a strong presumption in favor of the board of directors of a corporation, freeing its members from possible liability for decisions that result in harm to the corporation. It's not clear to me how conducting "ethical capitalism" could open you up to criminal liability.
dylan604 2y ago
>but there seems to be a shortage of sites which tell potential landlords "what the average renter can afford". does it matter? there will always be an above average renter. it's just a matter if the landlord can be patient enough to find them
- Ccecil 2y ago
  The point is to inform potentially ethical landlords on the direct effect of their choices. This is more begging for empathy than anything else...I understand how that does not help the bottom line...but it also does not "force" anyone to do anything. Requires no new laws...nor does it violate them through collusion.
bruce511 2y ago
While I'm onboard with your argument, fundamentally you are arguing for a reduction in capitailism/free market. One might describe your suggestions as socialism (not communism, there's a difference.) Again, I'm onboard myself, I prefer the democratic-socislism of Western Europe to the unrestricted capitalism of the US. Unfortunately though your argument carries no real weight in the US because there money is king, and the only thing that matters is the bottom line. Capitalism will keep pushing every boundary (unrestricted by a court system paid for by capitalists) because social-good, and ethics are simply not highly valued. Even by framing your argument as 'socialist', I immediately negate it in the minds of most Americans (who equate socialism either capitalism.) Alas nations have a psyche, and "caring" is not in the American psyche. Could it change? Sure. But I'm jaded enough not to expect it anytime soon. It'll only change when grass-roots people want it to change, and judging by election results up and down the ballot, there's no real swing in that direction.
- exe34 2y ago
  No, I think he's arguing for a free-er market. He's saying that landlords should have more information, that they should be told how much strife they are imposing on their community by pushing their parasitic behaviour to its limit.
  - mateo1 2y ago
    It's naive to think they don't already know.
whimsicalism 2y ago
yeah good luck getting people to charge less than what the market will bear maybe you can convince them to donate their houses while you’re at it
- Ccecil 2y ago
  Actually...the goal is to get them to charge exactly what the market will bear. Currently, the state of things are in rapid decline...the market is not "bearing" the current prices. People are slowly suffocating under the weight. And...there actually are people out there in the world who do give/loan houses to the needy. In the past I have personally seen it but typically it is involved with church members helping other church members. No reason society can't do the same...except for the people who convince others it cannot be done.

by Ccecil 2y ago

phendrenad2 2y ago

I doubt any of the employees of RealPage visit HN. I would guesstimate that probably about 1% of the total software developers worldwide actually visit here.

Ccecil 2y ago
Is the implication that only they can make the site? I am confident there are plenty here who could whip a demo up in a weekend.

TheDong 2y ago

Unfortunately, most of these companies have share-holders, and thus the directors of the company have a legal fiduciary duty to the shareholders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_judgment_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_judgment_rule If the directors intentionally forgo profit, they could be criminally liable, even if they do so with the intent of helping the community at the expense of the shareholders. Capitalism is designed, legally designed, to not be ethical, unless "maximizing profit" is your ethical code. Essentially, externalities, like destroying the environment and widening the wealth-gap, are capitalism working as designed. As such, we need specific laws to protect communities and people, though right now "laws" seem rather unpopular in quite a few countries.

Ccecil 2y ago
Yes...it is too late for the companies that exist already. No reason we cannot have a non profit counterargument to Realpage. Issue with new laws IMHO is "...the more rules and regulations...the more thieves and robbers..." and it seems to be in the past that more regulations just helps those causing the problem. The issue isn't that we need to remove the landlords...society needs to explain that they are not acting ethically. I would even be happy with just not giving handshakes and back pats to those who act in destructive ways. The average renter in my area makes ~$35k/year...but the average realtor makes $135k (according to glassdoor). At some point this just pushes out the "average".
hamandcheese 2y ago
The linked article seems to contradict what you are saying. > In effect, the business judgment rule creates a strong presumption in favor of the board of directors of a corporation, freeing its members from possible liability for decisions that result in harm to the corporation. It's not clear to me how conducting "ethical capitalism" could open you up to criminal liability.

dylan604 2y ago

>but there seems to be a shortage of sites which tell potential landlords "what the average renter can afford". does it matter? there will always be an above average renter. it's just a matter if the landlord can be patient enough to find them

Ccecil 2y ago
The point is to inform potentially ethical landlords on the direct effect of their choices. This is more begging for empathy than anything else...I understand how that does not help the bottom line...but it also does not "force" anyone to do anything. Requires no new laws...nor does it violate them through collusion.

bruce511 2y ago

While I'm onboard with your argument, fundamentally you are arguing for a reduction in capitailism/free market. One might describe your suggestions as socialism (not communism, there's a difference.) Again, I'm onboard myself, I prefer the democratic-socislism of Western Europe to the unrestricted capitalism of the US. Unfortunately though your argument carries no real weight in the US because there money is king, and the only thing that matters is the bottom line. Capitalism will keep pushing every boundary (unrestricted by a court system paid for by capitalists) because social-good, and ethics are simply not highly valued. Even by framing your argument as 'socialist', I immediately negate it in the minds of most Americans (who equate socialism either capitalism.) Alas nations have a psyche, and "caring" is not in the American psyche. Could it change? Sure. But I'm jaded enough not to expect it anytime soon. It'll only change when grass-roots people want it to change, and judging by election results up and down the ballot, there's no real swing in that direction.

exe34 2y ago
No, I think he's arguing for a free-er market. He's saying that landlords should have more information, that they should be told how much strife they are imposing on their community by pushing their parasitic behaviour to its limit.
- mateo1 2y ago
  It's naive to think they don't already know.

whimsicalism 2y ago

yeah good luck getting people to charge less than what the market will bear maybe you can convince them to donate their houses while you’re at it

Ccecil 2y ago
Actually...the goal is to get them to charge exactly what the market will bear. Currently, the state of things are in rapid decline...the market is not "bearing" the current prices. People are slowly suffocating under the weight. And...there actually are people out there in the world who do give/loan houses to the needy. In the past I have personally seen it but typically it is involved with church members helping other church members. No reason society can't do the same...except for the people who convince others it cannot be done.