4 ms·

As I already mentioned, New York has had a right to shelter for something like 40 years and as far as I understand abolished slavery in 1827. Finland also has t

As I already mentioned, New York has had a right to shelter for something like 40 years and as far as I understand abolished slavery in 1827. Finland also has this in their constitution and does not have a slaves building homes for people. I think your model of reality is a bit off.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
As I asked elsewhere, please don't be snarky. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was distinguishing between fundamental human rights and state entitlements. I don't think laws in Finland or New York defines reality in all places and times. If you want to talk about reality, this means that people get a cot in a bunkhouse with a roof over it. These laws dont entitle people to own houses or live in other peoples property.
- chefandy 2y ago
  > As I asked elsewhere, please don't be snarky. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was distinguishing between fundamental human rights and state entitlements. I don't think laws in Finland or New York defines reality in all places and times. If you want to talk about reality, this means that people get a cot in a bunkhouse with a roof over it. These laws dont entitle people to own houses or live in other peoples property. You might solicit fewer snarky comments by avoiding asinine comparisons between slavery and eviction regulation, and then admonishing people for not having a realistic take.
- bugglebeetle 2y ago
  >If you want to talk about reality, this means that people get a cot in a bunkhouse with a roof over it. >Maybe the most important structural change in Finland is that we've renovated our temporary accommodations in shelters and hostels into supported housing. For example, the last big shelter in Helsinki, run by the Salvation Army, had 250 beds. It was completely renovated in 2012. Now they have 81 independent, modern, apartments in that same building. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5437402 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5437402 Again, your model of reality is quite warped and off by being rooted in American cruelty.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    >Again, your model of reality is quite warped and off by being rooted in American cruelty. You are right, we dont share the same model of reality, or even what we are debating. I said it twice before, and this will be the last time. Im not debating what countries do and what services they choose to provide, but what their rights are. I pointed out early on that governments can and do choose to provide more housing. Yes, Heliniski chooses to have independent units. Thats not proof that it is a human right in finland, and illegal to have combined units. They weren't violating rights before 2012 in your article. This is doubly true for new york, which you have conveniently dropped. Does every homeless person there also have their own unit? Is it an illegal human rights violation in NY to make homeless people share a roof?
    - em-bee 2y ago
      the right to housing is part of the universal declaration of human rights. different countries implement that differently, but in europe generally this means more than just shelter, but an adequate private space with at least a private room, bathroom and cooking facility. shelters are temporary solutions with the intent to get people off the street and give them access to resources and support to find a permanent home. they are not intended to fulfill the right to housing. i believe finland has implemented a model where homeless people are moved directly to a home where they can stay permanently, and that is why they rebuilt a shelter for temporary stay into a place where people can actually stay long term
    - bugglebeetle 2y ago
      > Im not debating what countries do and what services they choose to provide, but what their rights are. Yes, and you steadfastly refuse to believe what those rights actually are, despite my telling and showing you multiple times, because somehow that would result in slavery or for some other incomprehensible reason. Article 19 of the Finnish constitution: >The public authorities shall promote the right of everyone to housing https://fra.europa.eu/en/law-reference/constitution-finland-33 https://fra.europa.eu/en/law-reference/constitution-finland-...

s1artibartfast 2y ago

As I asked elsewhere, please don't be snarky. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was distinguishing between fundamental human rights and state entitlements. I don't think laws in Finland or New York defines reality in all places and times. If you want to talk about reality, this means that people get a cot in a bunkhouse with a roof over it. These laws dont entitle people to own houses or live in other peoples property.

chefandy 2y ago
> As I asked elsewhere, please don't be snarky. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was distinguishing between fundamental human rights and state entitlements. I don't think laws in Finland or New York defines reality in all places and times. If you want to talk about reality, this means that people get a cot in a bunkhouse with a roof over it. These laws dont entitle people to own houses or live in other peoples property. You might solicit fewer snarky comments by avoiding asinine comparisons between slavery and eviction regulation, and then admonishing people for not having a realistic take.
bugglebeetle 2y ago
>If you want to talk about reality, this means that people get a cot in a bunkhouse with a roof over it. >Maybe the most important structural change in Finland is that we've renovated our temporary accommodations in shelters and hostels into supported housing. For example, the last big shelter in Helsinki, run by the Salvation Army, had 250 beds. It was completely renovated in 2012. Now they have 81 independent, modern, apartments in that same building. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5437402 https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5437402 Again, your model of reality is quite warped and off by being rooted in American cruelty.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  >Again, your model of reality is quite warped and off by being rooted in American cruelty. You are right, we dont share the same model of reality, or even what we are debating. I said it twice before, and this will be the last time. Im not debating what countries do and what services they choose to provide, but what their rights are. I pointed out early on that governments can and do choose to provide more housing. Yes, Heliniski chooses to have independent units. Thats not proof that it is a human right in finland, and illegal to have combined units. They weren't violating rights before 2012 in your article. This is doubly true for new york, which you have conveniently dropped. Does every homeless person there also have their own unit? Is it an illegal human rights violation in NY to make homeless people share a roof?
  - em-bee 2y ago
    the right to housing is part of the universal declaration of human rights. different countries implement that differently, but in europe generally this means more than just shelter, but an adequate private space with at least a private room, bathroom and cooking facility. shelters are temporary solutions with the intent to get people off the street and give them access to resources and support to find a permanent home. they are not intended to fulfill the right to housing. i believe finland has implemented a model where homeless people are moved directly to a home where they can stay permanently, and that is why they rebuilt a shelter for temporary stay into a place where people can actually stay long term
  - bugglebeetle 2y ago
    > Im not debating what countries do and what services they choose to provide, but what their rights are. Yes, and you steadfastly refuse to believe what those rights actually are, despite my telling and showing you multiple times, because somehow that would result in slavery or for some other incomprehensible reason. Article 19 of the Finnish constitution: >The public authorities shall promote the right of everyone to housing https://fra.europa.eu/en/law-reference/constitution-finland-33 https://fra.europa.eu/en/law-reference/constitution-finland-...