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Unless I totally misremember, Hamas sabotaged this deal. Not by threatening to not comply, but by actually not complying with the deal. The deal finally broke d

Unless I totally misremember, Hamas sabotaged this deal. Not by threatening to not comply, but by actually not complying with the deal. The deal finally broke down when Hamas stopped being late with hostage releases, and actually canceled hostage releases. Netanyahu's threats were probably an attempt at rescuing the deal, that even worked for a while. Of course Israel is blamed for all of it.

runarberg 2y ago
I was talking about the failed negotiations in January/February 2024, you are talking about the temporary ceasefire in November 2023. So not the same deal. You can actually read about it in the BBC source I cited. But lets talk about the 2023 temporary ceasefire. The deal never broke down, instead it expired. It was extended a couple of times, but negotiations to extend it a third time broke down. It did not end because of failure to comply. Neither Hamas nor Israel stopped releasing hostages all together until after the deal expired. I don’t know where you read that. The week long pause freed 105 of Hamas’ captives, while Israel freed 240 Palestinians. The deal called for the release of 50 hostages by Hamas and 150 imprisoned Palestinians by Israel. The extension called for 20 of Hamas’ hostages to be released and 60 more Palestinians to be freed by Israel. So in total Hamas promised to release 70 hostages but released 105 (35 more than promised; including 24 foreign nationals), while Israel promised to release 210 but actually released 240 (30 more then promised). Israel also promised to allow 200 trucks of aid into Gaza every day the truce stays in effect. I don’t have the number of trucks that actually entered, but I believe this was also met (though some truck drivers still complained about unnecessary and lengthy checks at the border). Before the ceasefire came into effect, both Biden, Sunak, and Scholz had voiced their opposition to the ceasefire. Several Israeli officials had also voiced oppositions to it. Hamas had supported it. Unlike in January though, Netanyahu did not oppose it, but rather stayed silent. During the ceasefire, Netanyahu wowed to continue the fighting and opposed any extensions to it. The USA on the other hand switch their stance and now supported extensions to it. On December 1, the truce ended. Hamas blamed Israel for not wanting to release more Palestinians, while the USA blamed Hamas for not wanting to give them a list with names of some of the captives. We will have to wait for some documents to be released before we know what really happened in Doha day. Hamas then lunched rocket attacks onto Israel. If you wanted to blame Hamas for anything here, those rocket attacks are a better target then some fabrication about not failure to meet demands of negotiations. Israel promptly resumed their attacks the same day, with 180 Palestinians martyred that day, including in Khan Younis, who’s residents where then forced to flee to Rafah, where most still live. On December 2, Netanyahu ordered the Israeli delegation to leave Qatar, which they did, and any prospects of further extensions were over. Since then Netanyahu has been staunchly opposed to any more ceasefire, and hostage negotiations, including the January prospects, and including the current prospects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_ceasefire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_ceas...
- candiodari 2y ago
  Where did I read the hostage deal fell apart because Hamas refused to abide by the terms? It was all over the news when it happened. It started with delays: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67531477 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67531477 Then, refusal (with "between the lines" that Hamas wasn't in control of the hostages, and it was more that Hamas "leaders" weren't actually in control of the hostages than a case of refusing a deal) https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/talks-to-release-hostages-held-up-over-hamas-demand-for-fuel-fcc29267 https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/talks-to-release-hosta... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/hostage-negotiations-stall-hamas-demand-fuel-deliveries-gaza-rcna122707 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/hostage-negotiat... I don't understand how you can say these things. "Hamas then (in response to hostage negotiations) launched rocket attacks onto Israel ... Netanyahu has been staunchly opposed to any more ceasefire and hostage negotiations" I mean you're not reasonable. Hamas, quite literally, blew up negotiations, again and again and again and again. They killed, massacred, exploded, destroyed, WHATEVER they could, every attempt at negotiations since the month they were created, almost 5 decades back. Blowing up negotiations with massacres is literally the reason they exist, initially the Oslo accords. Which means I will need A LOT of VERY DIRECT AND CLEAR evidence before I will even consider it was the Israeli side that ended negotiations.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    Israel were equally delayed in releasing their prisoners as well. And skirmishes happens on both sides of the table. And despite all that, the terms of the ceasefire—at least as related to the hostages—were met, and thensom, on both sides, and despite all this, they still extended the ceasefire a couple of times. Meaning that neither the delays, nor the skirmishes were the reason they failed to extend it the third time. Nowhere in your sources does it say Hamas nor Israel failed to deliver on promise, only that it was taking slower then expected. Your BBC article even cites the reason given by Hamas was slowness in delivering aid (we now know this is true). In fact all of your sources were published prior to the failure to extend the truce, which happened on December 1st. So I still don’t see where you read that the reason for the failure to extend were non-delivering on promises by Hamas. The truth is, it may very well be the fault of Hamas that the deal wasn’t extended. But we will not know that until Qatar releases documents which explains what really took place at the negotiating table on December 1st. Until then we are just speculating, and given what we know, it is equally likely that both parties are equally to blame.

runarberg 2y ago

I was talking about the failed negotiations in January/February 2024, you are talking about the temporary ceasefire in November 2023. So not the same deal. You can actually read about it in the BBC source I cited. But lets talk about the 2023 temporary ceasefire. The deal never broke down, instead it expired. It was extended a couple of times, but negotiations to extend it a third time broke down. It did not end because of failure to comply. Neither Hamas nor Israel stopped releasing hostages all together until after the deal expired. I don’t know where you read that. The week long pause freed 105 of Hamas’ captives, while Israel freed 240 Palestinians. The deal called for the release of 50 hostages by Hamas and 150 imprisoned Palestinians by Israel. The extension called for 20 of Hamas’ hostages to be released and 60 more Palestinians to be freed by Israel. So in total Hamas promised to release 70 hostages but released 105 (35 more than promised; including 24 foreign nationals), while Israel promised to release 210 but actually released 240 (30 more then promised). Israel also promised to allow 200 trucks of aid into Gaza every day the truce stays in effect. I don’t have the number of trucks that actually entered, but I believe this was also met (though some truck drivers still complained about unnecessary and lengthy checks at the border). Before the ceasefire came into effect, both Biden, Sunak, and Scholz had voiced their opposition to the ceasefire. Several Israeli officials had also voiced oppositions to it. Hamas had supported it. Unlike in January though, Netanyahu did not oppose it, but rather stayed silent. During the ceasefire, Netanyahu wowed to continue the fighting and opposed any extensions to it. The USA on the other hand switch their stance and now supported extensions to it. On December 1, the truce ended. Hamas blamed Israel for not wanting to release more Palestinians, while the USA blamed Hamas for not wanting to give them a list with names of some of the captives. We will have to wait for some documents to be released before we know what really happened in Doha day. Hamas then lunched rocket attacks onto Israel. If you wanted to blame Hamas for anything here, those rocket attacks are a better target then some fabrication about not failure to meet demands of negotiations. Israel promptly resumed their attacks the same day, with 180 Palestinians martyred that day, including in Khan Younis, who’s residents where then forced to flee to Rafah, where most still live. On December 2, Netanyahu ordered the Israeli delegation to leave Qatar, which they did, and any prospects of further extensions were over. Since then Netanyahu has been staunchly opposed to any more ceasefire, and hostage negotiations, including the January prospects, and including the current prospects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_ceasefire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_ceas...

candiodari 2y ago
Where did I read the hostage deal fell apart because Hamas refused to abide by the terms? It was all over the news when it happened. It started with delays: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67531477 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67531477 Then, refusal (with "between the lines" that Hamas wasn't in control of the hostages, and it was more that Hamas "leaders" weren't actually in control of the hostages than a case of refusing a deal) https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/talks-to-release-hostages-held-up-over-hamas-demand-for-fuel-fcc29267 https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/talks-to-release-hosta... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/hostage-negotiations-stall-hamas-demand-fuel-deliveries-gaza-rcna122707 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/hostage-negotiat... I don't understand how you can say these things. "Hamas then (in response to hostage negotiations) launched rocket attacks onto Israel ... Netanyahu has been staunchly opposed to any more ceasefire and hostage negotiations" I mean you're not reasonable. Hamas, quite literally, blew up negotiations, again and again and again and again. They killed, massacred, exploded, destroyed, WHATEVER they could, every attempt at negotiations since the month they were created, almost 5 decades back. Blowing up negotiations with massacres is literally the reason they exist, initially the Oslo accords. Which means I will need A LOT of VERY DIRECT AND CLEAR evidence before I will even consider it was the Israeli side that ended negotiations.
- runarberg 2y ago
  Israel were equally delayed in releasing their prisoners as well. And skirmishes happens on both sides of the table. And despite all that, the terms of the ceasefire—at least as related to the hostages—were met, and thensom, on both sides, and despite all this, they still extended the ceasefire a couple of times. Meaning that neither the delays, nor the skirmishes were the reason they failed to extend it the third time. Nowhere in your sources does it say Hamas nor Israel failed to deliver on promise, only that it was taking slower then expected. Your BBC article even cites the reason given by Hamas was slowness in delivering aid (we now know this is true). In fact all of your sources were published prior to the failure to extend the truce, which happened on December 1st. So I still don’t see where you read that the reason for the failure to extend were non-delivering on promises by Hamas. The truth is, it may very well be the fault of Hamas that the deal wasn’t extended. But we will not know that until Qatar releases documents which explains what really took place at the negotiating table on December 1st. Until then we are just speculating, and given what we know, it is equally likely that both parties are equally to blame.