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"teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking" You don't need to be a programmer to think logically. There are a lot of other fields th

by astine 14y ago

"teaching people the fundamentals of algorithmic and logical thinking" You don't need to be a programmer to think logically. There are a lot of other fields that teach that. Basic algorithmic knowledge is useful in daily life, but you won't necessarily gain that while "learning to code," and it's not necessarily more useful than anything else you might study. "how many other judges in technology patent cases will be able to at least have an intuition to call out a patent troll?" You going to have judges study electrical engineering as well? How about plumbing as well? Coding isn't special here, it's just the one thing you and I know. We're insisting that others toolbox's aren't full enough because they don't know the one tool that we happen to know. Perhaps that's a bit of a hacker-centric world-view?

SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
The judge who happened to know enough programming to dismiss Oracle's argument that a 9-line function should be worth millions certainly helped out. [1] [1] http://www.slashgear.com/oracle-android-argument-flounders-thanks-to-coder-judge-16228583/ http://www.slashgear.com/oracle-android-argument-flounders-t...
slantyyz 14y ago
>> You don't need to be a programmer to think logically. That's true. On the other hand, knowing the basics of coding makes it easier to do more even as an end user. Like writing a simple macro in Excel to do something it can't otherwise do. I see coding as a useful life skill. I know how to do simple things like change a light switch, fix simple leaks, change a tire, hem a pair of pants, make a cheesecake, etc. but I'm not an expert in any of those things, nor do I want to be. Having said that, I also know when a problem is beyond my skill and to let a professional handle it. There's nothing wrong with coding being one of those skills.
- icebraining 14y ago
  But did you learn those life skills upfront because you thought "it's important to know how to make a cheesecake", or did you learn as you needed them? Because Atwood doesn't seen anything "wrong" with learning to code; he does view learning it upfront as premature optimization: Here's a person who a) found an interesting problem, b) attempted to create a solution to the problem, which naturally c) led them to learning to code. (...) This is how it's supposed to work.
  - slantyyz 14y ago
    About half of those skills were pushed on me by my parents because they thought it was important, the other half by necessity or interest. But, if I have kids, I intend to teach all of the basic skills that I can, which I guess could be seen as premature optimization.
rapind 14y ago
Agreed. For all the talk of logic it seems like the root of disagreement is about a very basic logic problem. Problem solving skills != programming skills. In fact most of my problem solving skills are from learning to solve math problems and not from learning to program. * Not all problems are solved via programming. * Not all problems that can be solved via programming, should be solved via programming. * Not all problem solvers are programmers. * There are many ways to learn how to solve problems. One does not need to become a programmer to do so. I think programming is a pretty great skill to pickup in today's world. However I'm not ridiculous enough to suppose that the only way to succeed in solving problems is through code.

by astine 14y ago

SomeCallMeTim 14y ago

The judge who happened to know enough programming to dismiss Oracle's argument that a 9-line function should be worth millions certainly helped out. [1] [1] http://www.slashgear.com/oracle-android-argument-flounders-thanks-to-coder-judge-16228583/ http://www.slashgear.com/oracle-android-argument-flounders-t...

slantyyz 14y ago

>> You don't need to be a programmer to think logically. That's true. On the other hand, knowing the basics of coding makes it easier to do more even as an end user. Like writing a simple macro in Excel to do something it can't otherwise do. I see coding as a useful life skill. I know how to do simple things like change a light switch, fix simple leaks, change a tire, hem a pair of pants, make a cheesecake, etc. but I'm not an expert in any of those things, nor do I want to be. Having said that, I also know when a problem is beyond my skill and to let a professional handle it. There's nothing wrong with coding being one of those skills.

icebraining 14y ago
But did you learn those life skills upfront because you thought "it's important to know how to make a cheesecake", or did you learn as you needed them? Because Atwood doesn't seen anything "wrong" with learning to code; he does view learning it upfront as premature optimization: Here's a person who a) found an interesting problem, b) attempted to create a solution to the problem, which naturally c) led them to learning to code. (...) This is how it's supposed to work.
- slantyyz 14y ago
  About half of those skills were pushed on me by my parents because they thought it was important, the other half by necessity or interest. But, if I have kids, I intend to teach all of the basic skills that I can, which I guess could be seen as premature optimization.

rapind 14y ago

Agreed. For all the talk of logic it seems like the root of disagreement is about a very basic logic problem. Problem solving skills != programming skills. In fact most of my problem solving skills are from learning to solve math problems and not from learning to program. * Not all problems are solved via programming. * Not all problems that can be solved via programming, should be solved via programming. * Not all problem solvers are programmers. * There are many ways to learn how to solve problems. One does not need to become a programmer to do so. I think programming is a pretty great skill to pickup in today's world. However I'm not ridiculous enough to suppose that the only way to succeed in solving problems is through code.