7 ms·

The business deal was you pay rent, and when the contract ends you get out. Now you're changing the deal unilaterally and threatening to occupy somebody's prope

by smsm42 2y ago

The business deal was you pay rent, and when the contract ends you get out. Now you're changing the deal unilaterally and threatening to occupy somebody's property without contract and without paying, unless you're given additional payments. It's certainly not like every business deal.

em-bee 2y ago
most people who rent have no intention to move out but expect the contract to be renewed. in some jurisdictions this is even enforced by law. so they are not changing the deal unilaterally. in fact the landlord who wants the renter to move out is the one who is unilaterally changing the deal.
- smsm42 2y ago
  > most people who rent have no intention to move out but expect the contract to be renewed What this expectation is based on? You can't just "expect" other people to act for your benefit. > in some jurisdictions this is even enforced by law These jurisdictions likely have constant problems with their rental market, unless it's captured by the state or similar entity. It would be very strange for a willing person to enter a contract which essentially deprives them of control of their property forever. > so they are not changing the deal unilaterally Yes they are, unless their rental contract specifies that they are entitled to rent this property forever. I have not seen any such contract so far. > in fact the landlord who wants the renter to move out is the one who is unilaterally changing the deal. Again, this is not true unless the contract specifically promises the renter that they are entitled to be renting forever - which usually is not the case, and I am not sure why would any landlord sign such contract and lose the control of their property forever.
  - em-bee 2y ago
    You can't just "expect" other people to act for your benefit. at least german law says otherwise. and see my other comment. i have never rented with an expectation to move out. It would be very strange for a willing person to enter a contract which essentially deprives them of control of their property forever. if the purpose of the property is to be rented out then what more control do you need? you can terminate a lease if they fail to pay rent or destroy your property, or if you need it for your own family. but why would you want to terminate a lease otherwise? to raise the rent for the next tenant? that's just greed. unless their rental contract specifies that they are entitled to rent this property forever. I have not seen any such contract so far. in germany such contracts are the law. no other form of contract is valid unless it is a short term rental for a vacation home or something like that. I am not sure why would any landlord sign such contract and lose the control of their property welcome to germany.
    - smsm42 2y ago
      > at least german law says otherwise. I'm pretty sure it's not what it says. > i have never rented with an expectation to move out. Wait, you always rent with the expectation to stay in that place forever, until you die, and never move? That's certainly an unusual way of doing things. In the US, average renal duration is just above 2 years, and I have heard about people moving many times, so certainly you must be aware even if you do not intend to ever move, other people do that? > if the purpose of the property is to be rented out then what more control do you need Why do you think you can determine the purpose of the property that does not belong to you, once and forever? > why would you want to terminate a lease otherwise Why it's any of your business? > welcome to germany. Thanks, I'll pass, for one more reason in the otherwise very, very long list of reasons.
      - em-bee 2y ago
        I'm pretty sure it's not what it says. it does say that the needs of the tenants almost always outweigh the needs of the owner. you always rent with the expectation to stay in that place forever, until you die, and never move? why does undetermined time to stay always have to imply that i'll stay there until i die? i rent with the expectation that i can stay there as long as i want, and renew as many times as i want, until my life circumstances change. i never have a moving out date in mind. where i am now i might stay 1 year, 5 years, 10 years. i have no idea. the expectation is that i am the one to choose when i move out and noone else. Why do you think you can determine the purpose of the property that does not belong to you, once and forever? i don't. the german law does however. the majority of people in germany live in rental properties. so if you build a rental property, it better remain a rental property and nothing else. that's what you got permission and maybe even subsidies for. because the country needs more rental properties. and this is one way to achieve that. by giving tenants the right to rent the same place as long as they need. the exceptions for the owner to change that are very limited and need to be in the interest of the community. you can terminate a lease in order to use the property for your family. but that is pretty much the only exception. and even that can be limited if the tenant would loose their job if they had to move or would be forced to send the kids to another school. both are considered highly disruptive and against the interest of society, so tenants are protected from that. as long as the tenant is in such a situation you have no chance of getting them out. germany does this in order to provide stability for families and the community. Why it's any of your business? again, not mine, but the governments. by forcing a tenant to move you are acting against the interests of the community. Thanks, I'll pass there are many reasons not to want to live in germany. i don't live there either for reasons, but tenant protection is not one of them
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I dont know anyone who has rented with the expectation or even desire that they would be there for life. The deal clearly and explicitly allows for unilateral termination in the vast majority of jurisdictions. Asking someone to leave is not changing the deal when the contract says month to month until any party says stop.
  - em-bee 2y ago
    i have never once rented a place with a specific date in mind when i would move out again. it was always: we'll stay here until life circumstances force us to move, which may well be never. when we moved within the same city, it was always because the landlord forced us to and never because we wanted to (well, except once to get closer to our sons school). my grandmother lived in her home from her 20s until she passed away some 60 years later. and i believe before that her aunt lived there. and now my mother. and eventually me or someone else from our family will move in so we can continue the lease of this same apartment that has been rented by our family for probably close to a century. my dad lives in his current home for more than 40 years now. i am the odd one out in my family, having traveled so much that i have never lived more than a few years in the same place.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Is this in the USA?
      - em-bee 2y ago
        USA, China, Europe, everywhere i have been to... while moving out at the end of a lease was a possibility, it was never suggested that it was the expectation. on the contrary. generally the expectation was that we'd stay. most landlords we met favored long term tenants.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        My experience is that the expectation is that people will stay longer, not for the rest of their lives.

by smsm42 2y ago

em-bee 2y ago

most people who rent have no intention to move out but expect the contract to be renewed. in some jurisdictions this is even enforced by law. so they are not changing the deal unilaterally. in fact the landlord who wants the renter to move out is the one who is unilaterally changing the deal.

smsm42 2y ago
> most people who rent have no intention to move out but expect the contract to be renewed What this expectation is based on? You can't just "expect" other people to act for your benefit. > in some jurisdictions this is even enforced by law These jurisdictions likely have constant problems with their rental market, unless it's captured by the state or similar entity. It would be very strange for a willing person to enter a contract which essentially deprives them of control of their property forever. > so they are not changing the deal unilaterally Yes they are, unless their rental contract specifies that they are entitled to rent this property forever. I have not seen any such contract so far. > in fact the landlord who wants the renter to move out is the one who is unilaterally changing the deal. Again, this is not true unless the contract specifically promises the renter that they are entitled to be renting forever - which usually is not the case, and I am not sure why would any landlord sign such contract and lose the control of their property forever.
- em-bee 2y ago
  You can't just "expect" other people to act for your benefit. at least german law says otherwise. and see my other comment. i have never rented with an expectation to move out. It would be very strange for a willing person to enter a contract which essentially deprives them of control of their property forever. if the purpose of the property is to be rented out then what more control do you need? you can terminate a lease if they fail to pay rent or destroy your property, or if you need it for your own family. but why would you want to terminate a lease otherwise? to raise the rent for the next tenant? that's just greed. unless their rental contract specifies that they are entitled to rent this property forever. I have not seen any such contract so far. in germany such contracts are the law. no other form of contract is valid unless it is a short term rental for a vacation home or something like that. I am not sure why would any landlord sign such contract and lose the control of their property welcome to germany.
  - smsm42 2y ago
    > at least german law says otherwise. I'm pretty sure it's not what it says. > i have never rented with an expectation to move out. Wait, you always rent with the expectation to stay in that place forever, until you die, and never move? That's certainly an unusual way of doing things. In the US, average renal duration is just above 2 years, and I have heard about people moving many times, so certainly you must be aware even if you do not intend to ever move, other people do that? > if the purpose of the property is to be rented out then what more control do you need Why do you think you can determine the purpose of the property that does not belong to you, once and forever? > why would you want to terminate a lease otherwise Why it's any of your business? > welcome to germany. Thanks, I'll pass, for one more reason in the otherwise very, very long list of reasons.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      I'm pretty sure it's not what it says. it does say that the needs of the tenants almost always outweigh the needs of the owner. you always rent with the expectation to stay in that place forever, until you die, and never move? why does undetermined time to stay always have to imply that i'll stay there until i die? i rent with the expectation that i can stay there as long as i want, and renew as many times as i want, until my life circumstances change. i never have a moving out date in mind. where i am now i might stay 1 year, 5 years, 10 years. i have no idea. the expectation is that i am the one to choose when i move out and noone else. Why do you think you can determine the purpose of the property that does not belong to you, once and forever? i don't. the german law does however. the majority of people in germany live in rental properties. so if you build a rental property, it better remain a rental property and nothing else. that's what you got permission and maybe even subsidies for. because the country needs more rental properties. and this is one way to achieve that. by giving tenants the right to rent the same place as long as they need. the exceptions for the owner to change that are very limited and need to be in the interest of the community. you can terminate a lease in order to use the property for your family. but that is pretty much the only exception. and even that can be limited if the tenant would loose their job if they had to move or would be forced to send the kids to another school. both are considered highly disruptive and against the interest of society, so tenants are protected from that. as long as the tenant is in such a situation you have no chance of getting them out. germany does this in order to provide stability for families and the community. Why it's any of your business? again, not mine, but the governments. by forcing a tenant to move you are acting against the interests of the community. Thanks, I'll pass there are many reasons not to want to live in germany. i don't live there either for reasons, but tenant protection is not one of them
s1artibartfast 2y ago
I dont know anyone who has rented with the expectation or even desire that they would be there for life. The deal clearly and explicitly allows for unilateral termination in the vast majority of jurisdictions. Asking someone to leave is not changing the deal when the contract says month to month until any party says stop.
- em-bee 2y ago
  i have never once rented a place with a specific date in mind when i would move out again. it was always: we'll stay here until life circumstances force us to move, which may well be never. when we moved within the same city, it was always because the landlord forced us to and never because we wanted to (well, except once to get closer to our sons school). my grandmother lived in her home from her 20s until she passed away some 60 years later. and i believe before that her aunt lived there. and now my mother. and eventually me or someone else from our family will move in so we can continue the lease of this same apartment that has been rented by our family for probably close to a century. my dad lives in his current home for more than 40 years now. i am the odd one out in my family, having traveled so much that i have never lived more than a few years in the same place.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Is this in the USA?
    - em-bee 2y ago
      USA, China, Europe, everywhere i have been to... while moving out at the end of a lease was a possibility, it was never suggested that it was the expectation. on the contrary. generally the expectation was that we'd stay. most landlords we met favored long term tenants.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        My experience is that the expectation is that people will stay longer, not for the rest of their lives.