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People in valuing intangible things for not obviously rational reasons that can be easily dismissed if you approach the entire world with an attitude of smug cy

People in valuing intangible things for not obviously rational reasons that can be easily dismissed if you approach the entire world with an attitude of smug cynicism shock

dctoedt 2y ago
Valuing intangible things ≠ whinging when those intangibles are no longer adaptive to circumstances.
- b112 2y ago
  One thing that really bothers me, is a frozen culture. For example, Native Canadians would have a changed culture by now, 500 years after we showed up. Before our arrival, there was war between Native nations, cultural change due to trade and new inventions, and so on. Unless people believe that Natives didn't have new ideas, this is clearly so. And Native history shows change! To imagine that 500 years later, no music, language, culture, technology would have changed, is a massive disservice to both the intellect and capabilities of those peoples. Yet we enable things such as unrestrained hunting, and even whale hunting, for cultural reasons. As if a healthy Native nation wouldn't stop hunting endangered species! Come on! So yes, static "this is the way it was" is a load of hurtful outcomes. For all we know, Natives might have invented our tech by now, had we not intervened.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    > As if a healthy Native nation wouldn’t stop hunting endangered species! The North American megafauna didn’t disappear all by themselves. More recently, the Maori certainly made some species go extinct in New Zealand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_species_extinct_in_the_Holocene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_species_ex... If you’re going to recognize that natives/first nations/etc. have agency then we have to accept the good and the bad instead of infantilizing them according to some fantasy ideal.
    - b112 2y ago
      That wasn't my meaning. We have hunting quotas, and attempt to mitigate over fishing, and so on. Yes, we aren't perfect, but we try. My point was, if a contempary Native nation existed, had modern agriculture methods, and was able to subsist without hunting? I suspect they would self regulate as we do.
  - pbj1968 2y ago
    Well, given as they couldn’t come up with a functional wheel on their own… highly doubtful.
    - b112 2y ago
      You need a few things to care about wheels. Some sort of idle class with free time, domesticated draft animals, and an industrial base. Basically, people need to stop moving around and hunting to live, which means crops and domesticated food/work animals. And large cities for a strong industrial base. There were few places where all that came together. Maybe the Incans? But they also has waterways and slaves. But I agree, the timing was short.

People in valuing intangible things for not obviously rational reasons that can be easily dismissed if you approach the entire world with an attitude of smug cynicism shock

dctoedt 2y ago

Valuing intangible things ≠ whinging when those intangibles are no longer adaptive to circumstances.

b112 2y ago
One thing that really bothers me, is a frozen culture. For example, Native Canadians would have a changed culture by now, 500 years after we showed up. Before our arrival, there was war between Native nations, cultural change due to trade and new inventions, and so on. Unless people believe that Natives didn't have new ideas, this is clearly so. And Native history shows change! To imagine that 500 years later, no music, language, culture, technology would have changed, is a massive disservice to both the intellect and capabilities of those peoples. Yet we enable things such as unrestrained hunting, and even whale hunting, for cultural reasons. As if a healthy Native nation wouldn't stop hunting endangered species! Come on! So yes, static "this is the way it was" is a load of hurtful outcomes. For all we know, Natives might have invented our tech by now, had we not intervened.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  > As if a healthy Native nation wouldn’t stop hunting endangered species! The North American megafauna didn’t disappear all by themselves. More recently, the Maori certainly made some species go extinct in New Zealand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_species_extinct_in_the_Holocene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_species_ex... If you’re going to recognize that natives/first nations/etc. have agency then we have to accept the good and the bad instead of infantilizing them according to some fantasy ideal.
  - b112 2y ago
    That wasn't my meaning. We have hunting quotas, and attempt to mitigate over fishing, and so on. Yes, we aren't perfect, but we try. My point was, if a contempary Native nation existed, had modern agriculture methods, and was able to subsist without hunting? I suspect they would self regulate as we do.
- pbj1968 2y ago
  Well, given as they couldn’t come up with a functional wheel on their own… highly doubtful.
  - b112 2y ago
    You need a few things to care about wheels. Some sort of idle class with free time, domesticated draft animals, and an industrial base. Basically, people need to stop moving around and hunting to live, which means crops and domesticated food/work animals. And large cities for a strong industrial base. There were few places where all that came together. Maybe the Incans? But they also has waterways and slaves. But I agree, the timing was short.