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So many strawmen. Following a recipe, even with the ingredients coming from a meal kit, is still cooking. If you’re behind the wheel, you’re driving, no matter

So many strawmen. Following a recipe, even with the ingredients coming from a meal kit, is still cooking. If you’re behind the wheel, you’re driving, no matter who owns the car or if you can perform any maintenance. A C developer working in notepad.exe is a real developer, as is a Python developer working in PyCharm and using the standard IDE features to improve their productivity. Someone blindly copy-pasting output from a LLM is not a developer.

joshstrange 2y ago
> So many strawmen Good, I’m glad you grasped the point of my comment. I was talking about the absurdity of people “gatekeeping” programming. Those arguments are just as silly as people saying using an LLM (in any capacity) is wrong and means you aren’t programming anymore. Yes, blinding pasting code from an LLM does not a developer make. However that’s not what I suggested. I believe LLMs can be useful but you need to understand what it’s generating. The same way that SO is useful as long as you understand the code you are reusing (ideally modifying and reusing instead of a straight copy/paste).
- tombert 2y ago
  > I believe LLMs can be useful but you need to understand what it’s generating That was never in dispute and not disagreed with in what I wrote. I didn’t say “using an LLM is wrong in any capacity” nor is that implied by anything I wrote. I use ChatGPT daily, I even told students they should use it if they needed help with understanding concepts outside of class”. I didn’t “gatekeep” programming, I just said they couldn’t use AI during an exam. > I believe LLMs can be useful but you need to understand what it’s generating. Yeah, if only we had some way of EXAMining if the students understand what they were generating. Like, crazy idea, maybe we could have some kind of crazy test where they aren’t allowed to use ChatGPT or Copilot to make sure they understand the concepts first before we let them have a hand-holding world.
  - joshstrange 2y ago
    This isn’t productive. I never said you said that, I said some people. I never said you should or shouldn’t use LLMs on exams, I have no idea why that’s being brought into this conversation. I can only assume you’ve lost the thread and/or think you’re replying to someone else. This will be my last reply.
    - tombert 2y ago
      Your first post was in response to me claiming that going to McDonalds wasn’t cooking or getting an Uber isn’t the same as knowing how to drive. Specifically, they you were responding to was an anecdote about a student cheating on an exam by using ChatGPT, at least it appeared that way to me. It’s not weird to think your response was in regards to that. Maybe I misread your intent there, I just got a vibe that you were defending the use of LLMs during exams since that was the thing you were responding to. Apologies if I misread.

joshstrange 2y ago

> So many strawmen Good, I’m glad you grasped the point of my comment. I was talking about the absurdity of people “gatekeeping” programming. Those arguments are just as silly as people saying using an LLM (in any capacity) is wrong and means you aren’t programming anymore. Yes, blinding pasting code from an LLM does not a developer make. However that’s not what I suggested. I believe LLMs can be useful but you need to understand what it’s generating. The same way that SO is useful as long as you understand the code you are reusing (ideally modifying and reusing instead of a straight copy/paste).

tombert 2y ago
> I believe LLMs can be useful but you need to understand what it’s generating That was never in dispute and not disagreed with in what I wrote. I didn’t say “using an LLM is wrong in any capacity” nor is that implied by anything I wrote. I use ChatGPT daily, I even told students they should use it if they needed help with understanding concepts outside of class”. I didn’t “gatekeep” programming, I just said they couldn’t use AI during an exam. > I believe LLMs can be useful but you need to understand what it’s generating. Yeah, if only we had some way of EXAMining if the students understand what they were generating. Like, crazy idea, maybe we could have some kind of crazy test where they aren’t allowed to use ChatGPT or Copilot to make sure they understand the concepts first before we let them have a hand-holding world.
- joshstrange 2y ago
  This isn’t productive. I never said you said that, I said some people. I never said you should or shouldn’t use LLMs on exams, I have no idea why that’s being brought into this conversation. I can only assume you’ve lost the thread and/or think you’re replying to someone else. This will be my last reply.
  - tombert 2y ago
    Your first post was in response to me claiming that going to McDonalds wasn’t cooking or getting an Uber isn’t the same as knowing how to drive. Specifically, they you were responding to was an anecdote about a student cheating on an exam by using ChatGPT, at least it appeared that way to me. It’s not weird to think your response was in regards to that. Maybe I misread your intent there, I just got a vibe that you were defending the use of LLMs during exams since that was the thing you were responding to. Apologies if I misread.