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Vulture shortage threatens Zoroastrian burial rites
- celias 3y agoRadiolab and 99% Invisible have podcasts about this https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/towers-of-silence/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/towers-of-silence/ https://radiolab.org/podcast/corpse-demon https://radiolab.org/podcast/corpse-demon
- miiiiiike 3y agoIf you're only going to listen to one, listen to the Radiolab episode. The Radiolab episode is crisp and well reported, the 99% Invisible episode is muddled and rambling by comparison.
- ethbr1 3y agoSeconded. That Radiolab episode is one of the better ones I've listen to. Mostly because it's laid out as "But that begs yet another question...", to which the answer is equally fascinating. Also, it was just satisfying having a story with an ending: cause, found.
- dctoedt 3y ago"Our culture" really means "the ways in which we've become accustomed to doing things (because reasons), and which we believe everyone else should recognize as an entitlement for us." Likewise, "our culture is dying" seems like an overly-dramatic catch phrase for, "we don't like it that circumstances are changing and reducing our ability to do things in the manner to which we've become accustomed and are now entitled." EDIT: As another commenter correctly says, it's not a great idea to drive vultures into extinction. My comment is about people whinging about it in a way that suggests it's all about them.
- exe34 3y agoThis point of view isn't common, get used to it!
- amenhotep 3y agoPeople in valuing intangible things for not obviously rational reasons that can be easily dismissed if you approach the entire world with an attitude of smug cynicism shock
- dctoedt 3y agoValuing intangible things ≠ whinging when those intangibles are no longer adaptive to circumstances.
- b112 3y agoOne thing that really bothers me, is a frozen culture. For example, Native Canadians would have a changed culture by now, 500 years after we showed up. Before our arrival, there was war between Native nations, cultural change due to trade and new inventions, and so on. Unless people believe that Natives didn't have new ideas, this is clearly so. And Native history shows change! To imagine that 500 years later, no music, language, culture, technology would have changed, is a massive disservice to both the intellect and capabilities of those peoples. Yet we enable things such as unrestrained hunting, and even whale hunting, for cultural reasons. As if a healthy Native nation wouldn't stop hunting endangered species! Come on! So yes, static "this is the way it was" is a load of hurtful outcomes. For all we know, Natives might have invented our tech by now, had we not intervened.
- bobthepanda 3y ago> As if a healthy Native nation wouldn’t stop hunting endangered species! The North American megafauna didn’t disappear all by themselves. More recently, the Maori certainly made some species go extinct in New Zealand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_species_extinct_in_the_Holocene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_species_ex... If you’re going to recognize that natives/first nations/etc. have agency then we have to accept the good and the bad instead of infantilizing them according to some fantasy ideal.
- boomboomsubban 3y agoIf it's consumption of NSAID's that are killing the vultures, are the towers themselves not a risk? Are the dosages/drugs given to humans not a problem? Or is there some sort of preparation that would remove the NSAID's? I tried to research the Zoroastrian procedure, but it got gory pretty fast.
- bakul 3y agoDiclofenac has been banned in India for veterinary use since 2006. Another NSAID that is not deadly to vultures is recommended for such use. Not sure why Guardian ran this story now as this is old news. The real crisis with plunging vulture population goes far beyond Zoroastrian burial rites. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_vulture_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_vulture_crisis
- boomboomsubban 3y agoThat Wikipedia article is what made made curious, as it says "drugs like diclofenac..." From that small bit, it seems like the many NSAID's given to humans such as ibuprofen or asprin could be issues. Even diclofenac seems to have some human use.
- bakul 3y agoI suspect stronger drugs such as codeine etc are used for palliative care of humans in their last stages. Not sure of their effect on vultures. Parsi numbers have never been high and gradually decreasing (now about 70,000 in India), also they mainly live in relatively few places, most in Mumbai and nearby. The vulture population dropped from 40 million to a few hundred so the primary cause must be from their non-human diet.
- dyauspitr 3y agoAnd by decreasing you mean they are finally being assimilated into the general Indian population.
- the__alchemist 3y agoI'm in South East, USA, vice the Indian subcontinent. Did something happen here within the last year? (Maybe the same thing?) I haven't seen vultures (Turkey vultures) in maybe 3/4 of a year. They are usually ubiquitous and highly visible due to large wingspan, staying airborne for long periods etc, using thermals from roads/concrete etc that make them common in human-populated areas.
- hedora 3y agoWe have a lot of turkey vultures here in California. A few years ago, we found a few fresh dead (poisoned) rats in our barn. The turkey vulture population immediately dropped to zero at our house, and the rodent population skyrocketed for the next year. Please use traps (electrocution or old-fashioned wood and metal spring work best. The electrocution ones are more pet-friendly), and not poison to deal with your vermin. On a related note, we also have started to get Peregrine Falcons and Bald Eagles again. Hopefully those populations will continue to recover too. Poisoned rodents often wander around confused and screaming before they die, and if they do that in a field, they can take out a bird of prey instead of just the vultures. Seriously, just use the traps. They are way more humane. Also, you won’t have to fish dead animals out of your vents and walls.
- pfdietz 3y agoI went birding this morning near Ithaca, NY. Five turkey vultures, a bald eagle, and a kestrel (which caught and ate a mouse while we were watching) were among the species seen (and so many kinds of warblers. Really, why are there so many kinds of warblers?) I often see turkey vultures near our house (once a swooping flock of a dozen of them riding the wind coming up from the lake). Black vultures are starting to appear in this area also, most notably at the Cornell U. compost piles.
- bitwize 3y agoRatX, MouseX, and RatRid baits by EcoClear use a combination of gluten and salt to dehydrate the rodent, rather than poisoning it with toxins. Supposedly, they work well against rats and mice while being safe for larger animals, including birds of prey, to consume. People may wish to consider using these baits as well for rodent control. https://ecoclearproducts.com/ https://ecoclearproducts.com/ One of my favorite pest-control measures is furry and purrs when I stroke him. Currently we don't have rodents, but he likes to catch insects as well.
- jajko 3y agoEven in Iran, the place for zoroastrianism, the towers of silence I've seen are completely unused for decades. I've visited ie one in Yazd just outside the city some 8 years ago when international relationships were at highest point (if I knew I would go there ten times, absolutely amazing country and people, completely unspoiled by mass tourism). Zoroastrianism is fascinating and probably first major monotheistic religion and later ie judaism took a heavy inspiration from it. So much for everybody yelling how holiest their truth is and how chosen they specifically are, a lot of folks and mankind overall would benefit massively if they traveled more and more remote. I know I did. They have concrete building not far where they put their dead instead, forgot the exact procedure unfortunately but clearly its still ok within their religion. If in holiest city of whole religion which houses 'eternal flame' they can manage this, maybe other places should take a note too?
- rustcleaner 3y agoTake with a grain of salt, but if Robert Sepehr's videos have any truth to them then the history and traditions which interweave from that time and place are rich and far reaching. Sepehr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xf4FOpS1rU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xf4FOpS1rU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBkgI34mMH0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBkgI34mMH0 NOT Sepehr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fI8rXPalMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fI8rXPalMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcMUBpC4leM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcMUBpC4leM (Do your due dilligence!)
- rustcleaner 3y agoOUCH link 3 went private! It is titled "Sex The Secret Gate to Eden Gnostic Teachings" by Thelema Press and should be found elsewhere (if I notice it seemingly fully disappear, I can make it re-appear so seekers may find it and imbibe).
- kortex 3y agoIt's not every day you come across Gnostic stuff on HN, but those links are super fascinating, I can't wait to check them out! Zoroastrianism is such a fascinating topic.
- odyssey7 3y agoThere’s a global epidemic of grievous inflammatory disease in cattle caused by the paratuberculosis bacterium. The challenge can be solved entirely by vaccines, it’s just not prioritized. You can simply “cull” a sick cow and sell the diseased meat in the grocery store. The article doesn’t say what the inflammatory diseases in the cows are in India, but I wonder if it’s the same. Edit: Yes, researchers have identified widespread Paratuberculosis infections in India. “Our research on screening of over 26,000 domestic livestock for MAP infection using 4 different diagnostic tests (microscopy, culture, ELISA and PCR), during last 31 years has shown that the average bio-load of MAP in the livestock population of India is very high (cattle 43%, buffaloes 36%, goats 23% and sheep 41%).” [1] [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29090657/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29090657/
- KineticLensman 3y agoA factor that devastates African vulture populations is when poachers lace carcasses (e.g. rhinos killed for their horns) with poison, because vultures circling a kill reveal the presence of the poachers to wardens. A single big poisoned carcass can kill dozens of vultures at a time, of multiple species.
- jncfhnb 3y agoIsn’t it a myth that vultures circle kills
- standeven 3y agoI’ve personally seen turkey vultures circle carcasses on several occasions.
- soulofmischief 3y agoI've witnessed it many times myself.
- DontchaKnowit 3y agoNo. They'll even circle live animals if they can tell they are sick or dying. I personally witnessed this in the city trash dump of Tegucigalpa. Emaciated cattle grazing in trash, with cultures circling above them.
- fakedang 3y agoAlso vultures circling the battlefields of every Attila, Genghis Khan and Tamerlane, before swords were joined.;)
- el_benhameen 3y agoDifferent area and I assume different vultures, but head on out to the east east bay in the summer and you’ll see plenty of vulture circles.
- optimalsolver 3y ago
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- thuuuomas 3y agoWhy
- mehulashah 3y agoIt’s interesting how burial rituals change over time. Now, we’re talking about composting our bodies, which in some sense returns the remaining minerals back to where they came from in the earth.
- dyauspitr 3y agoWhich is what burial also accomplishes. What’s composting a human body outside of a burial?
- mos_basik 3y agoI think the difference is that if you go to a funeral home in the US and say "I'd like one burial, plain, no sugar" you will end up dressed in fancy clothes, filled with formaldehyde and a decent amount of sawdust, lying on soft polyester cushions and frills in a fancy varnished hardwood box with a lacquer finish and nearly airtight seal. This goes into the ground and then (I'm less to believe) largely doesn't change for decades. Whereas if you go to a human composting place and ask to be composted, you get packed into a tube with enough wood chips and straw to create the right carbon to nitrogen ratio and a few scoops of microbes and fungi and held at an optimum temperature and oxygen content until you turn into soil. Then you get delivered in the back of a pickup truck and hopefully someone uses you to plant a tree or something. Not to say that burial is always mutually exclusive with returning your nutrients to the earth - just that the default approach to burial these days isn't so good at it.
- defrost 3y agoOddly enough, from 7 days ago: What is human composting and should it be legalised? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-27/calls-to-legalise-human-composting-for-eco-friendly-burials/103677926 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-27/calls-to-legalise-hum... mos_basik mostly has it aside from bone grinding at some point, human skulls turning over in the market garden can be disconcerting and a nuisance for law enforcement so it's considered polite to remove and|or grind them.
- LAC-Tech 3y agoI'm always a little jealous that there still exists an active, continuously practised Indo-European religion in Iran, even if a minor one. They have something that Europeans and their diaspora have lost.
- dyauspitr 3y agoHinduism. It’s 1/7th of humanity.
- moneywoes 3y agoIndoEuropean meaning?
- mkl 3y agoIt's a language family [1] deriving from a hypothetical shared root language and population, with hypothesised religion [2]. Abrahamic religions' origins, like the Semitic languages they're associated with, are not Indo-European. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology
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- not_your_mentat 3y agoI get sky burials. I'm still waiting for someone to explain sky births to me.
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- i_am_a_peasant 3y agoI feel more sorry that the planet is losing yet another species that took billions of years to evolve rather than the rites of some religion tbh, the agenda of this article is so weird.
- charlysl 3y agoVultures are actually fascinating, team workers that collaborate with crows and magpies to clean the countryside from carcasses. There is an excellent documentary about this in Spanish: https://youtu.be/4bLO8d0e9O4?si=z2BUAz-90BhWGBdl https://youtu.be/4bLO8d0e9O4?si=z2BUAz-90BhWGBdl