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EV charging makes no money. The only reason public EV charging stations exist is because of government subsidy. Tesla -- despite selling more EVs last year th

EV charging makes no money. The only reason public EV charging stations exist is because of government subsidy. Tesla -- despite selling more EVs last year than every US automaker combined -- got only 17% of the NVEI grants. Tesla isn't going to build public infrastructure on its own dime. It will build cars, and let the other eager players built the infra instead. --- But somehow forecasted slowdown of a player with than less than one-fifth of the grant money is causing existential doubt? Anyone concerned that Ford is going to build fewer gas stations?

Ekaros 3y ago
EV charging sounds easy, but I think when you properly add up numbers they do not look that great. You could make it work by subsidising cost from car prices... But if that option is not around, you have to properly charge for charging.
toast0 3y ago
EV charging around me charge at 2x the residential rate (unless they're free, but nobody has put in free chargers in a while). Yeah, there's other costs beyond the energy, but still. Anyway, if they want to stop building, that's fine, but there's better ways to do it. This kind of mess really isn't that unexpected from Tesla, but it reinforces that changes will come with no warning, which isn't what I'm looking for in a company that makes a product that should last 20-30 years (and potentially much longer)
- bengale 3y ago
  2x sounds low. I pay 7p per kwh at home and I think my most recent fast charge was closer to 70p.
  - toast0 3y ago
    I'm seeing ~ $0.30/kWh, and it's abour $0.14 at home if IIRC. But I'm looking at chargepoint and it only tells me about chargers that fit my PHEV, which can't even take a full level 2 charge. I don't know if fast chargers charge more for convenience?
- paulddraper 3y ago
  how much warning did they give before the changes go into effect? how much warning should they have given?
  - toast0 3y ago
    As far as I can tell from reporting, there was no warning, and then they fired everyone and now existing projects have no point of contact, and nobody know what's going on. If I were in the middle of considering purchasing a car that relies on their network, I would have to stop and rethink. It's unlikely to continue to grow, but will it continue to operate at all? The right way to do this, even if there's no notice, is to realise a big change is going to make a lot of noise and communicate what the plan is, and have a transition plan. "We believe the charging industry has become self-sufficient [put some buzzwords here], so we're pausing new deployments; sites that have broken ground will continue construction. If you have questions about your site, please contact your rep/some vp?. Maintenance will continue at our current standard of X% availability, with N day repairs for most issues. Our chargers will/will not be available for others to install." Add some congratulatory BS about how you developed the charging industry and now it's ready to be set free. If you really want to fire everyone in the team, I guess that's fine, but don't do it right away. Have them wind down the sites not started over a week or two, and consolidate down the project planning to a smaller number of people. If people would quit instead, offer retention tied to milestones.
com2kid 3y ago
> EV charging makes no money. I have a friend running an EV charging company (not in the US). He makes plenty of money. But his company also provides lots of value adds during charging, including onsite dining. Although I imagine America's asinine rules, zoning laws, and permitting processes, may be preventing truly innovative players from entering the market. (Given that most US cities cannot even provide quick breakfast dining options aside from bagels, muffins, or fast food, this shouldn't be a surprise...)
- iwontberude 3y ago
  What do you mean by quick and what quick breakfast foods are we missing out on? I’m thinking about how fast it is to sit down and order at Waffle House, Dennys, or Perkins. Would that not be enough time to eat?
  - com2kid 3y ago
    Cities in Mexico have people selling different types of breakfast foods from stalls, trailers peddled around behind bikes, even garages that open up and sell food in the morning. China has so many breakfast options (street vendors selling various fried dishes, and congee stalls, are two of my favorites) to the extent that Chinese who visit America are surprised by how absolute shit the choices are in the US for breakfast. In Seattle, my choices if I don't want to sit down, are boring breakfast sandwiches or a sugar filled muffin. Oddly enough I didn't find much in the way of breakfast foods in Tokyo, it seems they don't have a big breakfast street food culture.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  Quick dining is by definition fast food
Animats 3y ago
I saw a McKinsey report claiming that higher-powered chargers are very profitable. They charge more per KwH, but the charger operator doesn't pay more per KwH, and more cars per day can use the thing since charging is faster. Shell is now into charging stations. They figure that if it has a big hose that fuels a car, that's their business. If Tesla doesn't want to be in the charger business, they could sell the business to Shell.
- RaoulP 3y ago
  Do you happen to have a link to that report?
- TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
  > I saw a McKinsey report claiming that higher-powered chargers are very profitable. That's IF people are using the charger. If they aren't, then the fees for reserved power will eat you alive.

Ekaros 3y ago

EV charging sounds easy, but I think when you properly add up numbers they do not look that great. You could make it work by subsidising cost from car prices... But if that option is not around, you have to properly charge for charging.

toast0 3y ago

EV charging around me charge at 2x the residential rate (unless they're free, but nobody has put in free chargers in a while). Yeah, there's other costs beyond the energy, but still. Anyway, if they want to stop building, that's fine, but there's better ways to do it. This kind of mess really isn't that unexpected from Tesla, but it reinforces that changes will come with no warning, which isn't what I'm looking for in a company that makes a product that should last 20-30 years (and potentially much longer)

bengale 3y ago
2x sounds low. I pay 7p per kwh at home and I think my most recent fast charge was closer to 70p.
- toast0 3y ago
  I'm seeing ~ $0.30/kWh, and it's abour $0.14 at home if IIRC. But I'm looking at chargepoint and it only tells me about chargers that fit my PHEV, which can't even take a full level 2 charge. I don't know if fast chargers charge more for convenience?
paulddraper 3y ago
how much warning did they give before the changes go into effect? how much warning should they have given?
- toast0 3y ago
  As far as I can tell from reporting, there was no warning, and then they fired everyone and now existing projects have no point of contact, and nobody know what's going on. If I were in the middle of considering purchasing a car that relies on their network, I would have to stop and rethink. It's unlikely to continue to grow, but will it continue to operate at all? The right way to do this, even if there's no notice, is to realise a big change is going to make a lot of noise and communicate what the plan is, and have a transition plan. "We believe the charging industry has become self-sufficient [put some buzzwords here], so we're pausing new deployments; sites that have broken ground will continue construction. If you have questions about your site, please contact your rep/some vp?. Maintenance will continue at our current standard of X% availability, with N day repairs for most issues. Our chargers will/will not be available for others to install." Add some congratulatory BS about how you developed the charging industry and now it's ready to be set free. If you really want to fire everyone in the team, I guess that's fine, but don't do it right away. Have them wind down the sites not started over a week or two, and consolidate down the project planning to a smaller number of people. If people would quit instead, offer retention tied to milestones.

com2kid 3y ago

> EV charging makes no money. I have a friend running an EV charging company (not in the US). He makes plenty of money. But his company also provides lots of value adds during charging, including onsite dining. Although I imagine America's asinine rules, zoning laws, and permitting processes, may be preventing truly innovative players from entering the market. (Given that most US cities cannot even provide quick breakfast dining options aside from bagels, muffins, or fast food, this shouldn't be a surprise...)

iwontberude 3y ago
What do you mean by quick and what quick breakfast foods are we missing out on? I’m thinking about how fast it is to sit down and order at Waffle House, Dennys, or Perkins. Would that not be enough time to eat?
- com2kid 3y ago
  Cities in Mexico have people selling different types of breakfast foods from stalls, trailers peddled around behind bikes, even garages that open up and sell food in the morning. China has so many breakfast options (street vendors selling various fried dishes, and congee stalls, are two of my favorites) to the extent that Chinese who visit America are surprised by how absolute shit the choices are in the US for breakfast. In Seattle, my choices if I don't want to sit down, are boring breakfast sandwiches or a sugar filled muffin. Oddly enough I didn't find much in the way of breakfast foods in Tokyo, it seems they don't have a big breakfast street food culture.
paulddraper 3y ago
Quick dining is by definition fast food

Animats 3y ago

I saw a McKinsey report claiming that higher-powered chargers are very profitable. They charge more per KwH, but the charger operator doesn't pay more per KwH, and more cars per day can use the thing since charging is faster. Shell is now into charging stations. They figure that if it has a big hose that fuels a car, that's their business. If Tesla doesn't want to be in the charger business, they could sell the business to Shell.

RaoulP 3y ago
Do you happen to have a link to that report?
TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
> I saw a McKinsey report claiming that higher-powered chargers are very profitable. That's IF people are using the charger. If they aren't, then the fees for reserved power will eat you alive.