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Play isn't idle play, we do it all for a reason, like all other animals. Kittens play to practice hunting. Puppies play to practice fighting. It's an evolved be
by acyou 2y ago
Play isn't idle play, we do it all for a reason, like all other animals. Kittens play to practice hunting. Puppies play to practice fighting. It's an evolved behavior where animals that practice do better than animals that don't.
It's pretty clear by inspection that with these wooden balls bees are exhibiting some sort of evolved behavioral response to their environmental stimulus. Might be related to sex, collecting food, protection from predators or some other activity that's critical for bee survival and replication.
My theory, which is as good as any other until investigated, is that bumblebees compete with other bumblebees for habitat, food and sexual/mating opportunities, and have naturally evolved to detect, fly into, grab and push around and maybe even fight with spherical, bumblebee-sized objects. For an animal behavioral scientist, it seems like this should be the first conclusion, no?
- lencastre 2y agoImagine fighting every headless manequim in Zara for practice. I will never look at that shop the same whey again.
- h0l0cube 2y agoIf you watch birds for long enough you see them doing silly things that seemingly have no evolutionary benefit. For example, I once saw a magpie, upside down on the floor with its legs in the air. My first thought is that it was hurt, but then soon enough another bird came and started play fighting with it and it just was taunting with its legs at the other bird, and then eventually flipping right side up and zooming off with the other in pursuit. Perhaps ground fighting is a useful skill, or perhaps birds also experience 'fun' from novel experiences. To flip it around, it's been posited ever since Darwin that a human predilections to take on a life drawing or woodworking course is driven by sexual selection. But without any external means to distinguish a conscious and unconscious agent, whether animals experience qualia is in a philosophical sense as unknowable as whether other humans experience qualia. Everyone except one's self could be 'philosophical zombies'[0]. This lack of verifiability is part of what is termed the 'hard problem of consciousness'[1]. If we ever build an AI agent that is conscious, we wouldn't know. Common sense would dictate, that because I, as a human, am conscious, any other human is most certainly conscious too. But if play behaviour isn't enough to hold this certainty, where should the bar be set? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness
- hnlmorg 2y agoMagpies and other crows are very intelligent birds. More intelligent than your average bird. There’s lots of videos online of these fascinating creatures doing clever and fun things. Eg https://youtu.be/1WupH8oyrAo?si=Ra_gI1CF0DPWjJwt https://youtu.be/1WupH8oyrAo?si=Ra_gI1CF0DPWjJwt
- lukan 2y ago"For example, I once saw a magpie, upside down on the floor with its legs in the air. " That sounds like it is useful for training flying skills. "Perhaps ground fighting is a useful skill" If you are chased by birds of prey, I guess any advantage you have in flying is useful. When birds chase them through thick forests, they do have to fly upside down some of the time. But very likely the bird does not think, "oh I need to train". No, they just have fun doing it. Like kids have fun wrestling. "Fun" is the motivator to do the right thing evolution wise. Our human problem with "fun" is just that we have other metrics for sucess, that are not that fun anymore.
- h0l0cube 2y ago> Our human problem with "fun" is just that we have other metrics for sucess, that are not that fun anymore. Bowerbirds go to great pains to gild their nests. Humans go to great pains to maintain an aura of success, though the vast majority are just trying to survive with whatever they have at their disposal.
- hypertele-Xii 2y agoSurvival is success, and humans are social creatures, maintaining group aura is vital to all social animals' survival success.
- h0l0cube 2y agoI’m not sure if you’re making a counterpoint or not, but this isn’t in contradiction to the notion that all animals including humans are tethered to the joyless daily grind
- fsckboy 2y ago> Kittens play to practice hunting just like humans have sex to procreate, right?
- marci 2y agoOr they play to practice procreation
- h0l0cube 2y agoAs far as we know today, sex for pleasure's sake is one of the unique characteristics of hominid species. For bonobos specifically, it's a means of social cohesion.
- hnlmorg 2y agoSome studies suggest that Dolphins have sex for pleasure too
- 082349872349872 2y agoSome graduate student stories I've heard suggest that some Dolphins may (like Ariel?) be "skinnies".
- hnlmorg 2y agoYou’ll have to explain your post a little more. I’m afraid I don’t get the “skinnies” reference
- 082349872349872 2y agoIf furries like creatures with fur, skinnies would like creatures with skin. (this was not a Starship Troopers [book] reference)
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- emsign 2y ago> It's pretty clear by inspection that with these wooden balls bees are exhibiting some sort of evolved behavioral response to their environmental stimulus. Might be related to sex, collecting food, protection from predators or some other activity that's critical for bee survival and replication. Could be. But the point is rather that you can say the exact same thing about our behavior. And that's why we should consider the possibility that if our behavior is similar to theirs, that they have similar inner experiences of what they are doing. Of course with difference due to different sensors and bodies.