6 ms·

Tesla retreat from EV charging leaves growth of U.S. network in doubt

37 points by MilnerRoute 2y ago

MilnerRoute 2y ago
"If Tesla slows down, these other companies will pick up some of the slack but not all of it. Because Tesla just deploys charging stations at another level," said Loren McDonald, chief executive of EVAdoption.
- al_borland 2y ago
  If other companies were able to deploy charging networks as well as Tesla, the superchargers wouldn’t be such a selling point for getting a Tesla over any other EV. Of course, now that is become a moot point with other condones using Tesla’s chargers.
  - bengale 2y ago
    What do we think makes it hard? I would assume it’s just a process thing, there’s no technical magic that I can think of?
    - al_borland 2y ago
      From the reports I’ve read/watched in the news, and EV owners I’ve talked to, it seems like it’s 2 things. One is building good and reliable processes for payment. Two is monitoring and maintenance, so the chargers actually function when someone shows up to use them. I don’t know if Tesla is better at that or is building more reliable chargers from the start, maybe both. Not having to worry at all about payments for the first several years probably helped. A lot of the charger companies seem to think it’s a cheap and easy business. Make a charger, throw it in a parking lot, and get income forever. I think they need to do better, especially with how long some people need to spend at the chargers. Gas stations have attendants. If something is wrong there is someone there to fix basic things or schedule someone to come out to fix more complex things. And they can hang a sign up when something isn’t working. Charging stations need this, as far as I can tell. A lot of them are put in parking lots of existing stores. I think one option would be to partner with the store, so they can have someone on staff who trains on the charger maintenance and takes care of some of those things. Maybe it’s not their full time job, but they get an extra percentage for taking on those extra responsibilities, which is paid for by the charging companies. There is also the question of future development to make the systems better. Tesla’s charger won the war. One would expect the winner to continue development so it can keep getting better and faster. Range anxiety and the time it takes to charge are still some of the big things in consumers minds that will prevent them from buying an EV. Solving those problems are a marriage between the battery and charging tech. A company in control of both parts of that would have a huge advantage when it comes to being first to market with those improvements.
gnabgib 2y ago
[flagged]
LunicLynx 2y ago
Here is my take: Elon actually has the numbers. And the profit to expenditure did not add up. The team wasn’t adapting in a useful manor, hence this is the outcome. This is as plausible as all the other opinions out there. In short we don’t know the half of it. What we do know is that ev sales have taken a dive. A network that grows faster then ev adoption might not be that useful, considering the bigger the network the bigger the upkeep. Also, Tesla only build that network because no one else was. (Check some past articles, this was clearly said). Evs have now been adopted to a point that other companies are getting into the game. Especially : gas stations. Last: home charging for daily commute will be more important. Most people will only go to a Super Charger on trips. Like 5% of the usage of the vehicle? There is more to this then flashy headlines. Elon is a good business man, who denies that, hasn’t grasped what he was able to achieve so far. Is he behaving like a 140 character idiot? Absolutely, but this is not new. His long form talks on the other hand often are very reasonable.
- adriancr 2y ago
  > Is he behaving like a 140 character idiot? who knows... perhaps he should be held accountable to the other 80% of investors and be forced to explain his moves?, it's no longer his company and yet he still behaves like it. Also a PR firm to avoid all these controversies would help a lot. He's a few really bad tweets from getting boycotted, or a few bad decisions from tanking tesla. Supercharger network is definitely a reason why I went for a Tesla and i'm definitely left wondering what's going on and how this will affect long trips. Edit: as noted by others, no real effect in europe due to availability of other options and drive to have chargers almost everywhere, so perhaps it is a good decision to focus on cars: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways?a=FJA05&t%5B0%5D=Charging&curl=1 https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40254733#40255521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40254733#40255521
  - HDThoreaun 2y ago
    Tesla cant get the gov subsidies for charging stations because of the rules about membership. Without the subsidies they cant compete. Really is as simple as that
paulddraper 2y ago
EV charging makes no money. The only reason public EV charging stations exist is because of government subsidy. Tesla -- despite selling more EVs last year than every US automaker combined -- got only 17% of the NVEI grants. Tesla isn't going to build public infrastructure on its own dime. It will build cars, and let the other eager players built the infra instead. --- But somehow forecasted slowdown of a player with than less than one-fifth of the grant money is causing existential doubt? Anyone concerned that Ford is going to build fewer gas stations?
- Ekaros 2y ago
  EV charging sounds easy, but I think when you properly add up numbers they do not look that great. You could make it work by subsidising cost from car prices... But if that option is not around, you have to properly charge for charging.
- toast0 2y ago
  EV charging around me charge at 2x the residential rate (unless they're free, but nobody has put in free chargers in a while). Yeah, there's other costs beyond the energy, but still. Anyway, if they want to stop building, that's fine, but there's better ways to do it. This kind of mess really isn't that unexpected from Tesla, but it reinforces that changes will come with no warning, which isn't what I'm looking for in a company that makes a product that should last 20-30 years (and potentially much longer)
  - bengale 2y ago
    2x sounds low. I pay 7p per kwh at home and I think my most recent fast charge was closer to 70p.
    - toast0 2y ago
      I'm seeing ~ $0.30/kWh, and it's abour $0.14 at home if IIRC. But I'm looking at chargepoint and it only tells me about chargers that fit my PHEV, which can't even take a full level 2 charge. I don't know if fast chargers charge more for convenience?
PaywallBuster 2y ago
technologically the charger was good enough for any upcoming demand I'd say no? the most challenging is the "deployment" / installation of it and turning it more (price) efficient which I guess would be done by different department hence firing
- peutetre 2y ago
  Tesla is behind technologically on their chargers, notably on voltage. The Cybertruck charges faster on Electrify America than it does on Tesla's own chargers: https://twitter.com/itskyleconner/status/1775014705222070331 https://twitter.com/itskyleconner/status/1775014705222070331 Alpitronic and Kempower make the best chargers. Alpitronic and Kempower chargers are slowly getting to North America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW3C5yYSENw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW3C5yYSENw
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    What is this preconditioning the replies to the tweet mention? Do you have to do something to prepare for those high output chargers specifically?
    - mathgeek 2y ago
      Batteries charge better when in a certain temperature range, due to physics. If you tell an EV you are heading to a charger, it can prep the battery to the proper temps.
      - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
        Does that need to be a different temperature for different chargers?
        mathgeek 2y ago
        With a more integrated system (e.g. all Tesla hardware involved or simply a charger that can communicate with the vehicle's software), sensors and software may specify what it needs to be in order for charging to commence. Otherwise it's generally an optimization rather than a requirement. The optimal range will depend on the class of the charger (how fast it's able to charge as well as sensors and software), the vehicle in question (the physical batteries themselves as well as cooling/heating systems), and other physical factors. In general: the faster the hardware can physically charge the battery, the more important temperature becomes.
7e 2y ago
It turns out that that Tesla was a low interest rate phenomenon.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  That’s really most of American business. The rest is monopolies (big tech), oligopolies (defense), or other areas with reduced competition due to regulations (healthcare) or network effects (social media, credit card networks) or capital needs (utilities).
mahkeiro 2y ago
There an interesting tweet from the other article that was flagged (??), that mention installation of fast charger in Europe and US and compare Tesla to the rest. https://twitter.com/FredericLambert/status/1786482732081574123 https://twitter.com/FredericLambert/status/17864827320815741... What is striking is the difference in the scale (4x), and it seems that the US are all in for Tesla.
- peutetre 2y ago
  It's in part because Europe applied sensible regulation to standardize EV charging. This standardization drives investment and deployment because everyone can build to the same standard and have all brands of charger, all brands of charging network work with all brands of EV. Europe's aiming for a baseline of 400 kW chargers on the TEN-T routes by 2026 and 600 kW by 2028: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways?a=FJA05&t%5B0%5D=Charging&curl=1 https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f... 400 kW chargers are already being deployed.
anonfordays 2y ago
Are there other notable examples of businesses that have axed entire business units from exec to IC? Any success stories?
- hypothesis 2y ago
  I mean he did it to Twitter. Apparently, still working…
  - baq 2y ago
    World’s biggest nonprofit, in his own words.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Related: Tesla Is Pulling Back from EV Charging, and People Are Freaking Out https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40232673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40232673
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Related: Read the wild email Tesla is sending to suppliers amid Supercharger chaos https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40253773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40253773
Animats 2y ago
There are US charging standards now.[1] And a subsidy program which is probably too big. Basic US standards: - At least four charging stations per location. - At least 150KW per charger. - 97% uptime. - May not require a membership. Must accept credit cards. May not charge more without a membership. Must display price per KwH before charging. Phone-based and car-based payment interfaces allowed but must not be required of the customer. - States getting funding must have a charging station every 50 miles along Interstate highways. - Must support CCS connector. Other connectors optional. This is not fully compatible with Tesla's business model, which may be a problem for Tesla. [1] https://tritiumcharging.com/what-is-nevi-and-how-will-it-help-electrify-american-transportation/ https://tritiumcharging.com/what-is-nevi-and-how-will-it-hel...
- lathiat 2y ago
  A surprisingly sensible and wonderful set of standards. Although the 50 miles part seems unnecessarily close.
  - xandrius 2y ago
    It's probably to match the restrictions for oil pumps? Or maybe to allow "cheaper" EVs to be viable. I've never read a set of rules which sounded as level headed as these, especially when talking about something helping with climate change.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    To me it seems reasonable distance. Unless you plan every trip exceedingly well. Also taking into account that charger might not be working.
  - kkfx 2y ago
    It's not: so far, at least in EU/the parts of the EU I live most, there are not that much BEVs and there are a sufficient number of chargers on highways, locations with 10 to 20+ 150-300kWp chargers are fairly common and only few of them are normally occupied. BUT if BEV spread such charging stations will be not enough, so you'll get many that try to reserve a charge via app/seen the current "crowded" state and decide to go to the next charger. Consider that any car tend to charge at least 10', mostly 15'. Ok, it's not that much, but if you have to wait just a car, let's say it's not the worst case all of the time, but still means a total 20' stop. Something ok if you are on vacation but not if you doing a long work trip and BEVs tend to be interesting economically if you run a bit long the year.
Gud 2y ago
It is my understanding that the Supercharger network was built to supercharge EV adaption, which has succeeded. Now there is a healthy amount of charging stations available. The next task is absolutely to solve the 1st mile.
moogly 2y ago
I don't get this move whatsoever, but if I were to be forced to play Devil's advocate, I'd point to the fact that the Supercharger network is merely the only game in town in the US, and globally, it will become a bit of a fart in the wind. It's already happening in Europe, and in fact, it's a bit of an issue that the Tesla route planner prioritizes Supercharger stations over other operators.

37 points by MilnerRoute 2y ago

"If Tesla slows down, these other companies will pick up some of the slack but not all of it. Because Tesla just deploys charging stations at another level," said Loren McDonald, chief executive of EVAdoption.

al_borland 2y ago
If other companies were able to deploy charging networks as well as Tesla, the superchargers wouldn’t be such a selling point for getting a Tesla over any other EV. Of course, now that is become a moot point with other condones using Tesla’s chargers.
- bengale 2y ago
  What do we think makes it hard? I would assume it’s just a process thing, there’s no technical magic that I can think of?
  - al_borland 2y ago
    From the reports I’ve read/watched in the news, and EV owners I’ve talked to, it seems like it’s 2 things. One is building good and reliable processes for payment. Two is monitoring and maintenance, so the chargers actually function when someone shows up to use them. I don’t know if Tesla is better at that or is building more reliable chargers from the start, maybe both. Not having to worry at all about payments for the first several years probably helped. A lot of the charger companies seem to think it’s a cheap and easy business. Make a charger, throw it in a parking lot, and get income forever. I think they need to do better, especially with how long some people need to spend at the chargers. Gas stations have attendants. If something is wrong there is someone there to fix basic things or schedule someone to come out to fix more complex things. And they can hang a sign up when something isn’t working. Charging stations need this, as far as I can tell. A lot of them are put in parking lots of existing stores. I think one option would be to partner with the store, so they can have someone on staff who trains on the charger maintenance and takes care of some of those things. Maybe it’s not their full time job, but they get an extra percentage for taking on those extra responsibilities, which is paid for by the charging companies. There is also the question of future development to make the systems better. Tesla’s charger won the war. One would expect the winner to continue development so it can keep getting better and faster. Range anxiety and the time it takes to charge are still some of the big things in consumers minds that will prevent them from buying an EV. Solving those problems are a marriage between the battery and charging tech. A company in control of both parts of that would have a huge advantage when it comes to being first to market with those improvements.

gnabgib 2y ago

[flagged]

LunicLynx 2y ago

Here is my take: Elon actually has the numbers. And the profit to expenditure did not add up. The team wasn’t adapting in a useful manor, hence this is the outcome. This is as plausible as all the other opinions out there. In short we don’t know the half of it. What we do know is that ev sales have taken a dive. A network that grows faster then ev adoption might not be that useful, considering the bigger the network the bigger the upkeep. Also, Tesla only build that network because no one else was. (Check some past articles, this was clearly said). Evs have now been adopted to a point that other companies are getting into the game. Especially : gas stations. Last: home charging for daily commute will be more important. Most people will only go to a Super Charger on trips. Like 5% of the usage of the vehicle? There is more to this then flashy headlines. Elon is a good business man, who denies that, hasn’t grasped what he was able to achieve so far. Is he behaving like a 140 character idiot? Absolutely, but this is not new. His long form talks on the other hand often are very reasonable.

adriancr 2y ago
> Is he behaving like a 140 character idiot? who knows... perhaps he should be held accountable to the other 80% of investors and be forced to explain his moves?, it's no longer his company and yet he still behaves like it. Also a PR firm to avoid all these controversies would help a lot. He's a few really bad tweets from getting boycotted, or a few bad decisions from tanking tesla. Supercharger network is definitely a reason why I went for a Tesla and i'm definitely left wondering what's going on and how this will affect long trips. Edit: as noted by others, no real effect in europe due to availability of other options and drive to have chargers almost everywhere, so perhaps it is a good decision to focus on cars: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways?a=FJA05&t%5B0%5D=Charging&curl=1 https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40254733#40255521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40254733#40255521
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
  Tesla cant get the gov subsidies for charging stations because of the rules about membership. Without the subsidies they cant compete. Really is as simple as that

paulddraper 2y ago

EV charging makes no money. The only reason public EV charging stations exist is because of government subsidy. Tesla -- despite selling more EVs last year than every US automaker combined -- got only 17% of the NVEI grants. Tesla isn't going to build public infrastructure on its own dime. It will build cars, and let the other eager players built the infra instead. --- But somehow forecasted slowdown of a player with than less than one-fifth of the grant money is causing existential doubt? Anyone concerned that Ford is going to build fewer gas stations?

Ekaros 2y ago
EV charging sounds easy, but I think when you properly add up numbers they do not look that great. You could make it work by subsidising cost from car prices... But if that option is not around, you have to properly charge for charging.
toast0 2y ago
EV charging around me charge at 2x the residential rate (unless they're free, but nobody has put in free chargers in a while). Yeah, there's other costs beyond the energy, but still. Anyway, if they want to stop building, that's fine, but there's better ways to do it. This kind of mess really isn't that unexpected from Tesla, but it reinforces that changes will come with no warning, which isn't what I'm looking for in a company that makes a product that should last 20-30 years (and potentially much longer)
- bengale 2y ago
  2x sounds low. I pay 7p per kwh at home and I think my most recent fast charge was closer to 70p.
  - toast0 2y ago
    I'm seeing ~ $0.30/kWh, and it's abour $0.14 at home if IIRC. But I'm looking at chargepoint and it only tells me about chargers that fit my PHEV, which can't even take a full level 2 charge. I don't know if fast chargers charge more for convenience?

PaywallBuster 2y ago

technologically the charger was good enough for any upcoming demand I'd say no? the most challenging is the "deployment" / installation of it and turning it more (price) efficient which I guess would be done by different department hence firing

peutetre 2y ago
Tesla is behind technologically on their chargers, notably on voltage. The Cybertruck charges faster on Electrify America than it does on Tesla's own chargers: https://twitter.com/itskyleconner/status/1775014705222070331 https://twitter.com/itskyleconner/status/1775014705222070331 Alpitronic and Kempower make the best chargers. Alpitronic and Kempower chargers are slowly getting to North America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW3C5yYSENw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW3C5yYSENw
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  What is this preconditioning the replies to the tweet mention? Do you have to do something to prepare for those high output chargers specifically?
  - mathgeek 2y ago
    Batteries charge better when in a certain temperature range, due to physics. If you tell an EV you are heading to a charger, it can prep the battery to the proper temps.
    - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      Does that need to be a different temperature for different chargers?
      - mathgeek 2y ago
        With a more integrated system (e.g. all Tesla hardware involved or simply a charger that can communicate with the vehicle's software), sensors and software may specify what it needs to be in order for charging to commence. Otherwise it's generally an optimization rather than a requirement. The optimal range will depend on the class of the charger (how fast it's able to charge as well as sensors and software), the vehicle in question (the physical batteries themselves as well as cooling/heating systems), and other physical factors. In general: the faster the hardware can physically charge the battery, the more important temperature becomes.

7e 2y ago

It turns out that that Tesla was a low interest rate phenomenon.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
That’s really most of American business. The rest is monopolies (big tech), oligopolies (defense), or other areas with reduced competition due to regulations (healthcare) or network effects (social media, credit card networks) or capital needs (utilities).

mahkeiro 2y ago

There an interesting tweet from the other article that was flagged (??), that mention installation of fast charger in Europe and US and compare Tesla to the rest. https://twitter.com/FredericLambert/status/1786482732081574123 https://twitter.com/FredericLambert/status/17864827320815741... What is striking is the difference in the scale (4x), and it seems that the US are all in for Tesla.

peutetre 2y ago
It's in part because Europe applied sensible regulation to standardize EV charging. This standardization drives investment and deployment because everyone can build to the same standard and have all brands of charger, all brands of charging network work with all brands of EV. Europe's aiming for a baseline of 400 kW chargers on the TEN-T routes by 2026 and 600 kW by 2028: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/fast-chargers-every-60-km-key-eu-motorways?a=FJA05&t%5B0%5D=Charging&curl=1 https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/article/f... 400 kW chargers are already being deployed.

anonfordays 2y ago

Are there other notable examples of businesses that have axed entire business units from exec to IC? Any success stories?

hypothesis 2y ago
I mean he did it to Twitter. Apparently, still working…
- baq 2y ago
  World’s biggest nonprofit, in his own words.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Related: Tesla Is Pulling Back from EV Charging, and People Are Freaking Out https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40232673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40232673

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

Related: Read the wild email Tesla is sending to suppliers amid Supercharger chaos https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40253773 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40253773

Animats 2y ago

There are US charging standards now.[1] And a subsidy program which is probably too big. Basic US standards: - At least four charging stations per location. - At least 150KW per charger. - 97% uptime. - May not require a membership. Must accept credit cards. May not charge more without a membership. Must display price per KwH before charging. Phone-based and car-based payment interfaces allowed but must not be required of the customer. - States getting funding must have a charging station every 50 miles along Interstate highways. - Must support CCS connector. Other connectors optional. This is not fully compatible with Tesla's business model, which may be a problem for Tesla. [1] https://tritiumcharging.com/what-is-nevi-and-how-will-it-help-electrify-american-transportation/ https://tritiumcharging.com/what-is-nevi-and-how-will-it-hel...

lathiat 2y ago
A surprisingly sensible and wonderful set of standards. Although the 50 miles part seems unnecessarily close.
- xandrius 2y ago
  It's probably to match the restrictions for oil pumps? Or maybe to allow "cheaper" EVs to be viable. I've never read a set of rules which sounded as level headed as these, especially when talking about something helping with climate change.
- Ekaros 2y ago
  To me it seems reasonable distance. Unless you plan every trip exceedingly well. Also taking into account that charger might not be working.
- kkfx 2y ago
  It's not: so far, at least in EU/the parts of the EU I live most, there are not that much BEVs and there are a sufficient number of chargers on highways, locations with 10 to 20+ 150-300kWp chargers are fairly common and only few of them are normally occupied. BUT if BEV spread such charging stations will be not enough, so you'll get many that try to reserve a charge via app/seen the current "crowded" state and decide to go to the next charger. Consider that any car tend to charge at least 10', mostly 15'. Ok, it's not that much, but if you have to wait just a car, let's say it's not the worst case all of the time, but still means a total 20' stop. Something ok if you are on vacation but not if you doing a long work trip and BEVs tend to be interesting economically if you run a bit long the year.

Gud 2y ago

It is my understanding that the Supercharger network was built to supercharge EV adaption, which has succeeded. Now there is a healthy amount of charging stations available. The next task is absolutely to solve the 1st mile.

moogly 2y ago

I don't get this move whatsoever, but if I were to be forced to play Devil's advocate, I'd point to the fact that the Supercharger network is merely the only game in town in the US, and globally, it will become a bit of a fart in the wind. It's already happening in Europe, and in fact, it's a bit of an issue that the Tesla route planner prioritizes Supercharger stations over other operators.