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I'm not sure what specifically you're objecting to. I've also made other arguments and corrections. Also what are you wanting me to say? That we can't tell the

by nsguy 2y ago

I'm not sure what specifically you're objecting to. I've also made other arguments and corrections. Also what are you wanting me to say? That we can't tell the result of elections we haven't had? Or are you pointing to other reasons why the Palestinians haven't had elections? I don't think taking this back reduces the strength of my argument. If you want me to delete that comment from the protocol I'm happy to. EDIT: I made some amendments to my commentary there and put in some more references. EDIT2: since you're calling me out I want to circle back to your comment that triggered my response: "A supermajority of Gazans are simply not old enough ever to have voted, since Hamas slaughtered PA members to "win" the 2006 election" as I said Hamas didn't slaughter the PA members to win. It won and then it slaughtered the Fatah people in Gaza. Hamas won the 2006 elections: "The Central Elections Commission released the final results on Sunday, 29 January 2006, and announced that Change and Reform (Hamas) had won 74 of the 132 seats, while Fatah trailed with 45". The popular vote is not the factor here (though it also got more votes than Fatah). I'm not sure why the point about the majority of Gazans today haven't voted in 2006 matters. It's a factual piece of data but I'm not sure it's relevant. Do we have any evidence to support those people are more likely to be in favour of peaceful coexistence with Israel and/or be opposed to Hamas? Is there an "opposition" in Gaza? It's clearly not a free or functioning democracy, I'll grant that. So if your point is that Gazans are oppressed by Hamas and don't enjoy democracy or other freedoms that's fair.

tptacek 2y ago
Gazans are victimized by Hamas, and then victimized again by Israel. Israel deliberately helped arrange for Hamas, an organization that held onto control of Gaza by force not persuasion, to be the most important actor in supply chains into Gaza and the sole political outlet for Gazan self-determination, then stood back and watched after 2017 as it transformed into an explicit death cult. It galls to see people attempt to tag Palestinians with responsibility for that. I'll be the first to say that the situation in Israel/Palestine is too complicated to summarize neatly, but whatever the hierarchy of culpability is, ordinary Gazans must be at the very bottom of it. If we agree about that, do you feel like the comment you wrote reflects that sensibility? Like a reasonable person reading it would get that vibe? It wasn't the vibe I got, but this is a message board, so I want to be careful not to let my expectations get out of hand.
- nsguy 2y ago
  I agree they are victimized by Hamas. That's fair. I think putting the blame on Israel is a trickier point. What exactly did you want Israel to do? Re-occupy Gaza after Hamas took over? Not let any money into Gaza? I don't see any good options here. As I said it's fair to say there was an element of complicity from Israel but I wouldn't call Israel a Hamas supporter by any stretch of that word. We also need to consider the conduct of the Palestinian Authority throughout this period. If you say that Israel handing over Gaza to the PA and withdrawal from the Gaza strip ended up being a big mistake I can agree with that in retrospect. At the time I personally thought there's a chance for peace. But that sort of brings us way back to the question of how is this conflict going to be resolved when all paths lead to bad outcomes. Hamas was a death cult way before 2017. The relationship between Palestinians in Gaza and Hamas is also more complicated then "victimized". I mean you're right but there are nuances there. Hamas isn't oppressing people in the west bank. What explains the polls showing strong support for Hamas there? EDIT: another random btw, I think your comments regarding the conflict are generally well informed and with good intentions. I appreciate that. It's sorely missing from online conduct on this topic.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    There's no run of Hamas that I have a high opinion of, but after Sinwar seized control, the political leadership fled and started leaking to the global media that he was insane and truly believed Hamas was about to ignite the final battle between good and evil. Then, on October 7, he took his best shot doing at exactly that. They were right! He was legitimately crazy! And Netanyahu both supported them through it, and ignored warnings from his own intelligence sources. If there's a thru-line to my comments on this issue on HN, it's this: (1) we're never going to resolve it on HN, and (2) Israelis aren't Europeans and Gazans aren't Hamas. Here, I'm just being consistent.

by nsguy 2y ago

tptacek 2y ago

Gazans are victimized by Hamas, and then victimized again by Israel. Israel deliberately helped arrange for Hamas, an organization that held onto control of Gaza by force not persuasion, to be the most important actor in supply chains into Gaza and the sole political outlet for Gazan self-determination, then stood back and watched after 2017 as it transformed into an explicit death cult. It galls to see people attempt to tag Palestinians with responsibility for that. I'll be the first to say that the situation in Israel/Palestine is too complicated to summarize neatly, but whatever the hierarchy of culpability is, ordinary Gazans must be at the very bottom of it. If we agree about that, do you feel like the comment you wrote reflects that sensibility? Like a reasonable person reading it would get that vibe? It wasn't the vibe I got, but this is a message board, so I want to be careful not to let my expectations get out of hand.

nsguy 2y ago
I agree they are victimized by Hamas. That's fair. I think putting the blame on Israel is a trickier point. What exactly did you want Israel to do? Re-occupy Gaza after Hamas took over? Not let any money into Gaza? I don't see any good options here. As I said it's fair to say there was an element of complicity from Israel but I wouldn't call Israel a Hamas supporter by any stretch of that word. We also need to consider the conduct of the Palestinian Authority throughout this period. If you say that Israel handing over Gaza to the PA and withdrawal from the Gaza strip ended up being a big mistake I can agree with that in retrospect. At the time I personally thought there's a chance for peace. But that sort of brings us way back to the question of how is this conflict going to be resolved when all paths lead to bad outcomes. Hamas was a death cult way before 2017. The relationship between Palestinians in Gaza and Hamas is also more complicated then "victimized". I mean you're right but there are nuances there. Hamas isn't oppressing people in the west bank. What explains the polls showing strong support for Hamas there? EDIT: another random btw, I think your comments regarding the conflict are generally well informed and with good intentions. I appreciate that. It's sorely missing from online conduct on this topic.
- tptacek 2y ago
  There's no run of Hamas that I have a high opinion of, but after Sinwar seized control, the political leadership fled and started leaking to the global media that he was insane and truly believed Hamas was about to ignite the final battle between good and evil. Then, on October 7, he took his best shot doing at exactly that. They were right! He was legitimately crazy! And Netanyahu both supported them through it, and ignored warnings from his own intelligence sources. If there's a thru-line to my comments on this issue on HN, it's this: (1) we're never going to resolve it on HN, and (2) Israelis aren't Europeans and Gazans aren't Hamas. Here, I'm just being consistent.