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The slaughter and takeover in Gaza came after Hamas won the elections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle

by nsguy 2y ago

The slaughter and takeover in Gaza came after Hamas won the elections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e... We haven't had an election since mostly because Hamas would win it. [EDIT: Clearly opinionated, we can/should look at polls since 2006 till today to get a sense of where Palestinians are leaning] "In light of the Fatah movement’s fragmentation, Hamas holds a clear advantage in potential legislative elections, as shown by public opinion polls indicating a likely landslide victory." - https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 As we know from other countries, not all elections are decided by a super-majority, Hamas won by the rules of their "democracy", it would have won in any other elections, and it and its actions enjoy broad support. [EDIT: I guess we can't tell for sure what results we would get in an election that didn't happen but here is some more colour on the elections of 2021 that were cancelled by the PA: https://www.npr.org/2021/04/29/992065009/palestinian-authority-postpones-parliamentary-elections https://www.npr.org/2021/04/29/992065009/palestinian-authori... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/30/palestinians-polls-hamas-plo https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/30/palestinians-polls-... https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-officially-delays-palestinian-elections-blaming-israel/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-officially-delays-palest...] "Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities." - https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514 https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion... Where I will agree with you is that the Israeli government has chosen a strategy of divide and conquer and were happy to see the internal battle between Palestinians and use that as an excuse/weapon. But again, you're giving the Palestinians too much of a pass here. Also it's inaccurate to say that Israel funded Hamas (something another comment said). Israel allowed Qatar to pass money into Gaza to pay for government officials salaries. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1NE1ET/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1NE1ET/ Many countries funded Hamas because every penny sent to Gaza goes to Hamas. Gaza received billions of dollars from many countries. https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90 https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-forei...

tptacek 2y ago
We haven't had an election since mostly because Hamas would win it. That's not a thing. If you have to make (or keep making; I say random things all the time, but I'm calling you on this one) this kind of argument, it's because all other arguments have abandoned you. I think you should concede it; either way, I can't imagine there being a point to us continuing to talk about this if you're not going to; maybe our premises are just too far apart.
- nsguy 2y ago
  I'm not sure what specifically you're objecting to. I've also made other arguments and corrections. Also what are you wanting me to say? That we can't tell the result of elections we haven't had? Or are you pointing to other reasons why the Palestinians haven't had elections? I don't think taking this back reduces the strength of my argument. If you want me to delete that comment from the protocol I'm happy to. EDIT: I made some amendments to my commentary there and put in some more references. EDIT2: since you're calling me out I want to circle back to your comment that triggered my response: "A supermajority of Gazans are simply not old enough ever to have voted, since Hamas slaughtered PA members to "win" the 2006 election" as I said Hamas didn't slaughter the PA members to win. It won and then it slaughtered the Fatah people in Gaza. Hamas won the 2006 elections: "The Central Elections Commission released the final results on Sunday, 29 January 2006, and announced that Change and Reform (Hamas) had won 74 of the 132 seats, while Fatah trailed with 45". The popular vote is not the factor here (though it also got more votes than Fatah). I'm not sure why the point about the majority of Gazans today haven't voted in 2006 matters. It's a factual piece of data but I'm not sure it's relevant. Do we have any evidence to support those people are more likely to be in favour of peaceful coexistence with Israel and/or be opposed to Hamas? Is there an "opposition" in Gaza? It's clearly not a free or functioning democracy, I'll grant that. So if your point is that Gazans are oppressed by Hamas and don't enjoy democracy or other freedoms that's fair.
  - tptacek 2y ago
    Gazans are victimized by Hamas, and then victimized again by Israel. Israel deliberately helped arrange for Hamas, an organization that held onto control of Gaza by force not persuasion, to be the most important actor in supply chains into Gaza and the sole political outlet for Gazan self-determination, then stood back and watched after 2017 as it transformed into an explicit death cult. It galls to see people attempt to tag Palestinians with responsibility for that. I'll be the first to say that the situation in Israel/Palestine is too complicated to summarize neatly, but whatever the hierarchy of culpability is, ordinary Gazans must be at the very bottom of it. If we agree about that, do you feel like the comment you wrote reflects that sensibility? Like a reasonable person reading it would get that vibe? It wasn't the vibe I got, but this is a message board, so I want to be careful not to let my expectations get out of hand.

by nsguy 2y ago

tptacek 2y ago

We haven't had an election since mostly because Hamas would win it. That's not a thing. If you have to make (or keep making; I say random things all the time, but I'm calling you on this one) this kind of argument, it's because all other arguments have abandoned you. I think you should concede it; either way, I can't imagine there being a point to us continuing to talk about this if you're not going to; maybe our premises are just too far apart.

nsguy 2y ago
I'm not sure what specifically you're objecting to. I've also made other arguments and corrections. Also what are you wanting me to say? That we can't tell the result of elections we haven't had? Or are you pointing to other reasons why the Palestinians haven't had elections? I don't think taking this back reduces the strength of my argument. If you want me to delete that comment from the protocol I'm happy to. EDIT: I made some amendments to my commentary there and put in some more references. EDIT2: since you're calling me out I want to circle back to your comment that triggered my response: "A supermajority of Gazans are simply not old enough ever to have voted, since Hamas slaughtered PA members to "win" the 2006 election" as I said Hamas didn't slaughter the PA members to win. It won and then it slaughtered the Fatah people in Gaza. Hamas won the 2006 elections: "The Central Elections Commission released the final results on Sunday, 29 January 2006, and announced that Change and Reform (Hamas) had won 74 of the 132 seats, while Fatah trailed with 45". The popular vote is not the factor here (though it also got more votes than Fatah). I'm not sure why the point about the majority of Gazans today haven't voted in 2006 matters. It's a factual piece of data but I'm not sure it's relevant. Do we have any evidence to support those people are more likely to be in favour of peaceful coexistence with Israel and/or be opposed to Hamas? Is there an "opposition" in Gaza? It's clearly not a free or functioning democracy, I'll grant that. So if your point is that Gazans are oppressed by Hamas and don't enjoy democracy or other freedoms that's fair.
- tptacek 2y ago
  Gazans are victimized by Hamas, and then victimized again by Israel. Israel deliberately helped arrange for Hamas, an organization that held onto control of Gaza by force not persuasion, to be the most important actor in supply chains into Gaza and the sole political outlet for Gazan self-determination, then stood back and watched after 2017 as it transformed into an explicit death cult. It galls to see people attempt to tag Palestinians with responsibility for that. I'll be the first to say that the situation in Israel/Palestine is too complicated to summarize neatly, but whatever the hierarchy of culpability is, ordinary Gazans must be at the very bottom of it. If we agree about that, do you feel like the comment you wrote reflects that sensibility? Like a reasonable person reading it would get that vibe? It wasn't the vibe I got, but this is a message board, so I want to be careful not to let my expectations get out of hand.