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Gaza's lock-in after Sharon's withdrawal has more to do with the Palestinians than it does with the Israel. Many Israelis had hopes that the Palestinians would

by nsguy 2y ago

Gaza's lock-in after Sharon's withdrawal has more to do with the Palestinians than it does with the Israel. Many Israelis had hopes that the Palestinians would take that as an opportunity to get somewhere better. I think the blame on Israel for Gaza is misplaced, the situation there is totally the Palestinians own doing. There story there is also more nuanced. Gaza was first handed over to the PA as part of the Oslo Accords (well, actually predating Oslo in the 1994 Cairo agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Jericho_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza%E2%80%93Jericho_Agreement ). That then formed a base for attacks on the IDF and Israeli civilians which eventually caused Sharon to unilaterally disconnect from Gaza ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaz... ). I think there was good will from the Israeli side and also from what I've heard Sharon intended to use this as a blueprint for withdrawal from the west bank. Either way, the blockade on Gaza is a response to the policies of Gaza, not an issue of discrimination, segregation, racial or ethnic. If Gaza was not at war with Israel there'd be no blockade. The gradual annexation/settlement of the west bank is a different story. I am opposed to that. But just like there are two sides to the story in Gaza there are two sides in the west bank. The west bank isn't a story of peaceful people that are being abused, it's a story of a violent struggle between two groups (well, more than two groups if we include the surrounding countries). The Israeli settlement activity is a side story in this conflict, not the root of it by any means. You're letting the Palestinian side off too easily here, when the peace process was in full swing they could have gotten complete control of most of the west bank and dismantlement of most of the settlements. What was their response? Suicide bombings. You are removing agency from the Palestinians when you say the distinction doesn't matter. They as a people made choices the led them to the current situation. The Palestinians want to dismantle Israel by force. Israel is opposed to that. What we're seeing broadly is the meeting of those two objectives. I think it's wrong of Israel to build settlements in occupied territory of undecided status and it's not helping a possible future resolution but the reality on the ground would look pretty much the same if there were no settlements at all given the irreconcilable differences between the parties here.

tptacek 2y ago
No part of Israel's security depends on Israelis expropriating West Bank land from Palestinians. A supermajority of Gazans are simply not old enough ever to have voted, since Hamas slaughtered PA members to "win" the 2006 election, and never again allowed another election; that would be an isolated point except that the current Israeli administration adopted a strategy of funding those apocolyptic psychopaths in order to hobble the PA. The culpability is shared, and very little of it falls on "main street" Palestinians.
- nsguy 2y ago
  The slaughter and takeover in Gaza came after Hamas won the elections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e... We haven't had an election since mostly because Hamas would win it. [EDIT: Clearly opinionated, we can/should look at polls since 2006 till today to get a sense of where Palestinians are leaning] "In light of the Fatah movement’s fragmentation, Hamas holds a clear advantage in potential legislative elections, as shown by public opinion polls indicating a likely landslide victory." - https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 As we know from other countries, not all elections are decided by a super-majority, Hamas won by the rules of their "democracy", it would have won in any other elections, and it and its actions enjoy broad support. [EDIT: I guess we can't tell for sure what results we would get in an election that didn't happen but here is some more colour on the elections of 2021 that were cancelled by the PA: https://www.npr.org/2021/04/29/992065009/palestinian-authority-postpones-parliamentary-elections https://www.npr.org/2021/04/29/992065009/palestinian-authori... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/30/palestinians-polls-hamas-plo https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/30/palestinians-polls-... https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-officially-delays-palestinian-elections-blaming-israel/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-officially-delays-palest...] "Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities." - https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514 https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion... Where I will agree with you is that the Israeli government has chosen a strategy of divide and conquer and were happy to see the internal battle between Palestinians and use that as an excuse/weapon. But again, you're giving the Palestinians too much of a pass here. Also it's inaccurate to say that Israel funded Hamas (something another comment said). Israel allowed Qatar to pass money into Gaza to pay for government officials salaries. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1NE1ET/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1NE1ET/ Many countries funded Hamas because every penny sent to Gaza goes to Hamas. Gaza received billions of dollars from many countries. https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90 https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-forei...

by nsguy 2y ago

tptacek 2y ago

No part of Israel's security depends on Israelis expropriating West Bank land from Palestinians. A supermajority of Gazans are simply not old enough ever to have voted, since Hamas slaughtered PA members to "win" the 2006 election, and never again allowed another election; that would be an isolated point except that the current Israeli administration adopted a strategy of funding those apocolyptic psychopaths in order to hobble the PA. The culpability is shared, and very little of it falls on "main street" Palestinians.

nsguy 2y ago
The slaughter and takeover in Gaza came after Hamas won the elections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e... We haven't had an election since mostly because Hamas would win it. [EDIT: Clearly opinionated, we can/should look at polls since 2006 till today to get a sense of where Palestinians are leaning] "In light of the Fatah movement’s fragmentation, Hamas holds a clear advantage in potential legislative elections, as shown by public opinion polls indicating a likely landslide victory." - https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/84509 As we know from other countries, not all elections are decided by a super-majority, Hamas won by the rules of their "democracy", it would have won in any other elections, and it and its actions enjoy broad support. [EDIT: I guess we can't tell for sure what results we would get in an election that didn't happen but here is some more colour on the elections of 2021 that were cancelled by the PA: https://www.npr.org/2021/04/29/992065009/palestinian-authority-postpones-parliamentary-elections https://www.npr.org/2021/04/29/992065009/palestinian-authori... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/30/palestinians-polls-hamas-plo https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/4/30/palestinians-polls-... https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-officially-delays-palestinian-elections-blaming-israel/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-officially-delays-palest...] "Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities." - https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514 https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion... Where I will agree with you is that the Israeli government has chosen a strategy of divide and conquer and were happy to see the internal battle between Palestinians and use that as an excuse/weapon. But again, you're giving the Palestinians too much of a pass here. Also it's inaccurate to say that Israel funded Hamas (something another comment said). Israel allowed Qatar to pass money into Gaza to pay for government officials salaries. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1NE1ET/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1NE1ET/ Many countries funded Hamas because every penny sent to Gaza goes to Hamas. Gaza received billions of dollars from many countries. https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90 https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-forei...