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"European Countries before the Napoleonic Age were quite a bit "intertwined"" Excellent contribution. Marion Gräfin Dönhof talks about this, a descendant of bo

"European Countries before the Napoleonic Age were quite a bit "intertwined"" Excellent contribution. Marion Gräfin Dönhof talks about this, a descendant of both Prussian and newly turned "Polish" political elite and aristocracy. Some of her german ancestors adopted polish names and became thus polish. Before the rise of nationalism, there was not really such a gap between nations as today. Germans sometimes even ruled parts of Poland with no issues. There were also special laws and leaders in Poland exclusively for Germans, in other words, the Germans in Poland ruled themselves, living side by side respectfully with the Polish people. All of this makes one ask what nations really are and what national identity really is in the end, beyond political propaganda. National coherence was forced onto people everywhere, with dramatic consequences and suffering. People have lived hundreds or even thousands of years without the need for unified nations, often many different cultures coexisting with each other under a banner of a "nation", which was mostly just the culture of a given ruling aristocracy at that time.

surfingdino 2y ago
It seems that creation of nation states was a way of scaling up tribalism.
dzink 2y ago
It’s money - taxes and tax collection a then the power of those with bigger coffers.
keiferski 2y ago
The sketch of history you’ve laid out here is misleading and wrong. You’re conveniently forgetting the fact that larger powers deliberately set out to destroy local languages in favor of their own imperial ones, and that Romantic nationalism was a direct response to this. Polish nationalism in the 19th century was continually boosted by the anti-Polish cultural behavior of the larger empires, which tried to erase Polish culture and language in favor of German or Russian. Conversely in the Austrian partition, there was more local tolerance for Polish culture and subsequently Poles had a slightly more amicable relationship with the Austrian-Hungarians. It seems you simply don’t know your history.
- fch42 2y ago
  Strong words ... I for one inplied (and stated) only two things in my posting: 1. The "Polish Partitions" were not unique nor exceptional "for their time". Predatory behaviour by states in Europe has other examples contemporary to the partitions. 2. The aggressive nationalism, not the least by (but also not exclusively by) Germany wasn't a driver of the Polish Partitions, nor did these cause it. The latter is at least rather obvious from mere timing - "Germany" didn't exist, and while the two then-largest/then-most-powerful Prussia/Austria participated in it, the largest (by far) part of the German populace was simply unaffected and indifferent. For, say, a Hannoverian, what happened in England or Holland was likely far more interesting, and had a far more direct impact on their lifes, than what happened in Poland. It's absolutely not an excuse for what happened later, especially not for Germany going down a deep dark path. Did the Polish partitions cause "imperialistic nationalism" ? I'm not sure. Poland got a bad deal from those near-200 years without statehood, agreed. There were a lot of other factors in play then, though, and the world, not even Europe, exclusively revolves around "what happened to Poland", "what Germany did", "what France did" or "what the Church did". If only the history of the world were so trivial, and so objectively to assess. The only thing, really, we can do today is to stand by "Never Again!". To stand against breeding resentment. For fairness. It's not always easy.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    Again, you don't seem to have much historical knowledge of the situation and instead are pushing some kind of German superiority propaganda, as suggested by your other comments. I suggest reading more about how Prussia (and Russia) deliberately sought to eradicate Polish culture and the Polish language, long before the Nazis, starting here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Poles_during_the_Partitions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Poles_durin... The rest of your comment is just hand-waving, wishy-washy nonsense that lacks any sort of coherent thesis, probably because you're indirectly trying to argue that Germany is superior to Poland, which is obvious, again, because of your blatantly misleading comments throughout this thread. P.S: you forgot to log out of your alt account when replying to me. Hilarious that you replied to your own comment (as as michael9423) with "Excellent contribution."

surfingdino 2y ago

It seems that creation of nation states was a way of scaling up tribalism.

dzink 2y ago

It’s money - taxes and tax collection a then the power of those with bigger coffers.

keiferski 2y ago

The sketch of history you’ve laid out here is misleading and wrong. You’re conveniently forgetting the fact that larger powers deliberately set out to destroy local languages in favor of their own imperial ones, and that Romantic nationalism was a direct response to this. Polish nationalism in the 19th century was continually boosted by the anti-Polish cultural behavior of the larger empires, which tried to erase Polish culture and language in favor of German or Russian. Conversely in the Austrian partition, there was more local tolerance for Polish culture and subsequently Poles had a slightly more amicable relationship with the Austrian-Hungarians. It seems you simply don’t know your history.

fch42 2y ago
Strong words ... I for one inplied (and stated) only two things in my posting: 1. The "Polish Partitions" were not unique nor exceptional "for their time". Predatory behaviour by states in Europe has other examples contemporary to the partitions. 2. The aggressive nationalism, not the least by (but also not exclusively by) Germany wasn't a driver of the Polish Partitions, nor did these cause it. The latter is at least rather obvious from mere timing - "Germany" didn't exist, and while the two then-largest/then-most-powerful Prussia/Austria participated in it, the largest (by far) part of the German populace was simply unaffected and indifferent. For, say, a Hannoverian, what happened in England or Holland was likely far more interesting, and had a far more direct impact on their lifes, than what happened in Poland. It's absolutely not an excuse for what happened later, especially not for Germany going down a deep dark path. Did the Polish partitions cause "imperialistic nationalism" ? I'm not sure. Poland got a bad deal from those near-200 years without statehood, agreed. There were a lot of other factors in play then, though, and the world, not even Europe, exclusively revolves around "what happened to Poland", "what Germany did", "what France did" or "what the Church did". If only the history of the world were so trivial, and so objectively to assess. The only thing, really, we can do today is to stand by "Never Again!". To stand against breeding resentment. For fairness. It's not always easy.
- keiferski 2y ago
  Again, you don't seem to have much historical knowledge of the situation and instead are pushing some kind of German superiority propaganda, as suggested by your other comments. I suggest reading more about how Prussia (and Russia) deliberately sought to eradicate Polish culture and the Polish language, long before the Nazis, starting here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Poles_during_the_Partitions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Poles_durin... The rest of your comment is just hand-waving, wishy-washy nonsense that lacks any sort of coherent thesis, probably because you're indirectly trying to argue that Germany is superior to Poland, which is obvious, again, because of your blatantly misleading comments throughout this thread. P.S: you forgot to log out of your alt account when replying to me. Hilarious that you replied to your own comment (as as michael9423) with "Excellent contribution."