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Ignoring the fact that this article doesn't clearly state the "evidence" that the FTC found in this "conspiracy", it misunderstands what occurred with US Shale

Ignoring the fact that this article doesn't clearly state the "evidence" that the FTC found in this "conspiracy", it misunderstands what occurred with US Shale producers from 2010-now. In the 2010s, US Shale Producers got hyped up on strong oil prices and the explosion of fracking. They massively overproduced, leading to the price cratering and a large majority of producers going out of business. Oil and gas was in severe distress from the late 2010s to the negative price drama in 2020. When prices rebounded in early 2020s, there was a lot of scar tissue in the industry about overproduction. Producers are now extremely conservative. They are also well aware that clean energy is on the horizon and want to draw out this good cycle as long as they can. Opposite to what the conspiracy theory states, OPEC and US Shale do not want prices to go too high in the short term, as this shock would accelerate the clean energy transition. They definitely want strong prices, but this $80-100 range is probably the sweet spot. Below $80, they might pull back, which is what we see from OPEC. But this certainly isn't some "conspiracy" to elevate oil to $200/barrel. These participants are sophisticated and are not that shortsighted. I think the typical Democrat-Party view that "oil bad" and "oil corrupt" lacks nuance. It also ignores the profligate government spending that is driving excessive consumption (travel, etc.) causing a lot of these market dislocations the past several years. Now, they want to point the finger at some grand conspiracy. This seems not far off from Q-Anon on the other side of the political aisle.

a123b456c 2y ago
"If Texas leads the way, maybe we can get OPEC to cut production. Maybe Saudi and Russia will follow. That was our plan,” he said, adding: “I was using the tactics of OPEC+ to get a bigger OPEC+ done.”"
wolverine876 2y ago
> When prices rebounded in early 2020s, there was a lot of scar tissue in the industry about overproduction. Producers are now extremely conservative In corporate America generally, it seems to be a widespread strategy to limit supply and drive up prices. Sometimes it's done explicitly and illegally, such as in rental housing (look up RealPage). Is there evidence that it's particular to shale production? > I think the typical Democrat-Party view that "oil bad" and "oil corrupt" lacks nuance. You said it, then said it lacks nuance.
pxeger1 2y ago
> excess consumption (travel etc.) Could you explain what you mean by excess consumption?
- code_biologist 2y ago
  There are obvious charitable interpretations of OP's meaning, but you ask for effort without any yourself. Could you explain what you're unclear about? Could you explain if you ask for clarity at all, or because you have an underlying unexpressed disagreement? Is it about the definitional existence of "excess consumption" or is it the precise details you quibble with?
  - sangnoir 2y ago
    A definition of Excessive consumption would be in order, because it suggests that there's a "right" level of consumption other than what the market settles on, gp did not quantify what counts as excessive, or why. This concept is new to me and warrants more than a single parenthetical example that raises more questions.
    - lazide 2y ago
      So high that it bankrupted a huge number of producers. What is so confusing?
      - sangnoir 2y ago
        On what basis can the bankruptcies be blamed solely/mostly on consumer behavior, versus the viability of many fracking companies being staked on an impermanently high oil prices? The oil industry is notorious for boom-and-bust cycles. Who's culpable for the bankruptcy of businesses that were only viable under a Zero Interest Rate regime? Should we blame consumer exuberance - or excessive consumption - for pushing up interest rates and causing bankruptcies?
        Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago
toss1 2y ago
>>I think the typical Democrat-Party view that "oil bad" and "oil corrupt" lacks nuance. Right. That is why, after 3 years of a Democratic Presidency and Senate, the US is producing more crude oil than any country, ever [0]. /s If what you said about Democrats had even a shred of validity, that would not happen. [0] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61545 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61545
feoren 2y ago
There's a common mental exercise I see where smart people will engage in armchair economics to explain what "must have" happened in some situation, or the way the word must work. It all sounds very convincing, but the problem is that there are dozens of other equally convincing macroeconomic explanations. Somehow the ones people tend to pick happen to excuse every rich person from any accountability and foster a "greed is good" outlook, even though the other equally good explanations (left unsaid) would imply the opposite. You shrug off the FTC's evidence here, and put the word "conspiracy" in scare quotes to discredit it. But the FTC claims "Sheffield sought to align oil production across the Permian Basin in West Texas and New Mexico with OPEC+." and "Sheffield, for example, exchanged hundreds of text messages with OPEC representatives and officials discussing crude oil market dynamics, pricing and output." It feels to me like you're disregarding any actual facts and evidence in this case for your favorite macroeconomic explanation instead.
- Teever 2y ago
  I think what you're witnessing is a defense mechanism that comes about as a response to cognitive dissonance that is related to their deeply held personal beliefs about how the world works and their role in those workings. To admit such a level of failure of the global system that they identify so strongly with is like admitting a personal weakness to some people. so they reject that possiblility any way they can.
UncleEntity 2y ago
I distinctly remember reading back in the day[0] the shale oil industry complaining how OPEC would drive up production with the sole intent of making shale oil extraction too expensive and bankrupting companies. Apparently they went with the old "if you can't beat them, join them" defensive strategy. [0] https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2016/12/31/An-Analysis-of-OPECs-Strategic-Actions-US-Shale-Growth-and-the-2014-Oil-Price-Crash-44064 https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2016/12/31/An-... Took way too long to find that link, thanks google...
- EasyMark 2y ago
  A lot of the small outfits also went bankrupt and had to bail, leaving only the big players. It's much easier to cartel/collude when there are a lot fewer competitors. I think all the big guys got the message that slow and steady was the way to go, so they keep the prices high and simply don't pump more than they planned on. I saw one oil man on TV saying the days of razor-thin profit margins were over for his company and they were going to stick to their slow and steady strategy.
bandyaboot 2y ago
> This seems not far off from Q-Anon on the other side of the political aisle. You either didn’t pay much attention to the sheer insanity of Q-Anon, or you view the world through an extremely partisan lens. Mentioning these two things in the same sentence is itself insane. > Democrat-Party I’ll put my money on option 2.

a123b456c 2y ago

"If Texas leads the way, maybe we can get OPEC to cut production. Maybe Saudi and Russia will follow. That was our plan,” he said, adding: “I was using the tactics of OPEC+ to get a bigger OPEC+ done.”"

wolverine876 2y ago

> When prices rebounded in early 2020s, there was a lot of scar tissue in the industry about overproduction. Producers are now extremely conservative In corporate America generally, it seems to be a widespread strategy to limit supply and drive up prices. Sometimes it's done explicitly and illegally, such as in rental housing (look up RealPage). Is there evidence that it's particular to shale production? > I think the typical Democrat-Party view that "oil bad" and "oil corrupt" lacks nuance. You said it, then said it lacks nuance.

pxeger1 2y ago

> excess consumption (travel etc.) Could you explain what you mean by excess consumption?

code_biologist 2y ago
There are obvious charitable interpretations of OP's meaning, but you ask for effort without any yourself. Could you explain what you're unclear about? Could you explain if you ask for clarity at all, or because you have an underlying unexpressed disagreement? Is it about the definitional existence of "excess consumption" or is it the precise details you quibble with?
- sangnoir 2y ago
  A definition of Excessive consumption would be in order, because it suggests that there's a "right" level of consumption other than what the market settles on, gp did not quantify what counts as excessive, or why. This concept is new to me and warrants more than a single parenthetical example that raises more questions.
  - lazide 2y ago
    So high that it bankrupted a huge number of producers. What is so confusing?
    - sangnoir 2y ago
      On what basis can the bankruptcies be blamed solely/mostly on consumer behavior, versus the viability of many fracking companies being staked on an impermanently high oil prices? The oil industry is notorious for boom-and-bust cycles. Who's culpable for the bankruptcy of businesses that were only viable under a Zero Interest Rate regime? Should we blame consumer exuberance - or excessive consumption - for pushing up interest rates and causing bankruptcies?
      - Red_Leaves_Flyy 2y ago

toss1 2y ago

>>I think the typical Democrat-Party view that "oil bad" and "oil corrupt" lacks nuance. Right. That is why, after 3 years of a Democratic Presidency and Senate, the US is producing more crude oil than any country, ever [0]. /s If what you said about Democrats had even a shred of validity, that would not happen. [0] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61545 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61545

feoren 2y ago

There's a common mental exercise I see where smart people will engage in armchair economics to explain what "must have" happened in some situation, or the way the word must work. It all sounds very convincing, but the problem is that there are dozens of other equally convincing macroeconomic explanations. Somehow the ones people tend to pick happen to excuse every rich person from any accountability and foster a "greed is good" outlook, even though the other equally good explanations (left unsaid) would imply the opposite. You shrug off the FTC's evidence here, and put the word "conspiracy" in scare quotes to discredit it. But the FTC claims "Sheffield sought to align oil production across the Permian Basin in West Texas and New Mexico with OPEC+." and "Sheffield, for example, exchanged hundreds of text messages with OPEC representatives and officials discussing crude oil market dynamics, pricing and output." It feels to me like you're disregarding any actual facts and evidence in this case for your favorite macroeconomic explanation instead.

Teever 2y ago
I think what you're witnessing is a defense mechanism that comes about as a response to cognitive dissonance that is related to their deeply held personal beliefs about how the world works and their role in those workings. To admit such a level of failure of the global system that they identify so strongly with is like admitting a personal weakness to some people. so they reject that possiblility any way they can.

UncleEntity 2y ago

I distinctly remember reading back in the day[0] the shale oil industry complaining how OPEC would drive up production with the sole intent of making shale oil extraction too expensive and bankrupting companies. Apparently they went with the old "if you can't beat them, join them" defensive strategy. [0] https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2016/12/31/An-Analysis-of-OPECs-Strategic-Actions-US-Shale-Growth-and-the-2014-Oil-Price-Crash-44064 https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2016/12/31/An-... Took way too long to find that link, thanks google...

EasyMark 2y ago
A lot of the small outfits also went bankrupt and had to bail, leaving only the big players. It's much easier to cartel/collude when there are a lot fewer competitors. I think all the big guys got the message that slow and steady was the way to go, so they keep the prices high and simply don't pump more than they planned on. I saw one oil man on TV saying the days of razor-thin profit margins were over for his company and they were going to stick to their slow and steady strategy.

bandyaboot 2y ago

> This seems not far off from Q-Anon on the other side of the political aisle. You either didn’t pay much attention to the sheer insanity of Q-Anon, or you view the world through an extremely partisan lens. Mentioning these two things in the same sentence is itself insane. > Democrat-Party I’ll put my money on option 2.