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Lesser energy density is a pretty big caveat that can readily make or break the commercial viability of this technology. How big of a difference compared to lit

Lesser energy density is a pretty big caveat that can readily make or break the commercial viability of this technology. How big of a difference compared to lithium ion is the energy density?

eliaspro 2y ago
Density doesn't really matter for stationary grid storage, where even slightly lower battery costs can easily outmatch higher space requirements.
- zardo 2y ago
  It matters, but only as much as shipping costs matter.
- rockskon 2y ago
  Given the stated use cases of the post I responded to was electric vehicles and mobile devices, my response was framed in terms of that. Consumer devices - especially phones - famously prioritize battery life.
  - shkkmo 2y ago
    They also prioritize price, especially at the low end. If sodium batteries are significantly cheaper, it will be used to produce low cost devices.
    - rockskon 2y ago
      What? Smart phones are famously high-margin devices. What do you mean "prioritize price"? Not for most smart phones.
      - IntelMiner 2y ago
        There's a few billion people who can't afford the latest model iPhone or Google Pixel device each year
        rockskon 2y ago
        And that's a pretty big caveat! Helpful framing to highlight who'd be most likely to benefit from this.
      - ekianjo 2y ago
        there are a lot of smartphones sold for low end markets like India and China. most of the worlds phones, actually. not everyone lives in California and makes a million a year
      - spurgu 2y ago
        Even though I could easily afford an iPhone or Pixel my daily driver is a $150 Android phone. Due to the low margins of the manufacturer it's actually a very usable device.
    - kube-system 2y ago
      There are already batteries cheaper than lithium ion batteries, but they are not in low-end phones, because a low-end lithium ion phone battery is still only a few dollars.
Qwertious 2y ago
Energy density for cars doesn't matter as long as it's above a certain minimum that lets the cars travel ~500km (~300 miles). Once they reach that number, car companies mostly care about cost - higher energy density reduces the weight of the car, which lowers the material costs of the rest of the car, but a big reduction on the cost of the battery does effectively the same thing. Ideally they want a dirt-cheap battery that's also high capacity, but then so does everyone.

Lesser energy density is a pretty big caveat that can readily make or break the commercial viability of this technology. How big of a difference compared to lithium ion is the energy density?

eliaspro 2y ago

Density doesn't really matter for stationary grid storage, where even slightly lower battery costs can easily outmatch higher space requirements.

zardo 2y ago
It matters, but only as much as shipping costs matter.
rockskon 2y ago
Given the stated use cases of the post I responded to was electric vehicles and mobile devices, my response was framed in terms of that. Consumer devices - especially phones - famously prioritize battery life.
- shkkmo 2y ago
  They also prioritize price, especially at the low end. If sodium batteries are significantly cheaper, it will be used to produce low cost devices.
  - rockskon 2y ago
    What? Smart phones are famously high-margin devices. What do you mean "prioritize price"? Not for most smart phones.
    - IntelMiner 2y ago
      There's a few billion people who can't afford the latest model iPhone or Google Pixel device each year
      - rockskon 2y ago
        And that's a pretty big caveat! Helpful framing to highlight who'd be most likely to benefit from this.
    - ekianjo 2y ago
      there are a lot of smartphones sold for low end markets like India and China. most of the worlds phones, actually. not everyone lives in California and makes a million a year
    - spurgu 2y ago
      Even though I could easily afford an iPhone or Pixel my daily driver is a $150 Android phone. Due to the low margins of the manufacturer it's actually a very usable device.
  - kube-system 2y ago
    There are already batteries cheaper than lithium ion batteries, but they are not in low-end phones, because a low-end lithium ion phone battery is still only a few dollars.

Qwertious 2y ago

Energy density for cars doesn't matter as long as it's above a certain minimum that lets the cars travel ~500km (~300 miles). Once they reach that number, car companies mostly care about cost - higher energy density reduces the weight of the car, which lowers the material costs of the rest of the car, but a big reduction on the cost of the battery does effectively the same thing. Ideally they want a dirt-cheap battery that's also high capacity, but then so does everyone.