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The fundamental point here is that Palestine is not a sovereign nation. Gaza and the West Bank are both essentially colonies of Israel. In the case of West Bank

by tootie 3y ago

The fundamental point here is that Palestine is not a sovereign nation. Gaza and the West Bank are both essentially colonies of Israel. In the case of West Bank, territory is being slowly appropriated. And Gaza is like an open-air prison. The residents are essentially disenfranchised Israelis. That's the Apartheid comparison. Israel has options to rectify, but until they do, they are de facto oppressors. None of that is fabricated. It is not point for point identical to South Africa, but that's just parsing. They are oppressors and that's the reality. I am pretty familiar with ultra-orthodox. I've spent a lot of time with chabad people. Their culture is genuinely pretty nuts. They suck up public money, put their kids into private religious schools that don't teach basics, run their own private police forces, extort politicians as a voting bloc, run private towns (see Kiryas Joel) where they take over county government. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/11/nyregion/hasidic-yeshivas-schools-new-york.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/11/nyregion/hasidic-yeshivas... https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-village-with-the-numbers-not-the-image-of-the-poorest-place.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-vi... Sure, fabricated stories exist and plenty of morons believe them. Judaism is fabricated too as far as I'm concerned, but people can believe what they want. I am judging people on their actions.

nsguy 3y ago
Gaza was definitely not a colony of Israel by any stretch of that word. The West bank is frozen in the midst of a peace process that fell apart but the word colony is not an accurate description either. Open air prison is also not a thing. The oppressor in Gaza is Hamas. An oppressor in the west bank is the PA. Israel is also in that mix, yes. It is putting extreme restrictions on a population inside an occupied territory that is using violence against it. The narrative does not fit. In terms of international law, Israel has occupied the territory of Jordan in the west bank. If the residents of that territory e.g. conduct suicide bombings against Israelis then Israel is allowed to take measures against that. It is in fact allowed to take significantly more severe measures than it has (e.g. including a death penalty). I would say in some sense you're right an the Palestinians are oppressed. I would also say the restrictions on them are in place mostly for security reasons. If there was no violence against Israelis there would be no restrictions (and that in fact was pretty much the case before the first intifada when violence levels were much lower restrictions and "oppression" was also significantly lower). There is also the problem of settlements in the west bank and Israeli ideologies of "the full land of Israel" (strangely enough aligned with your idea of the Palestinians being disenfranchised Israelis). The wall that was built around the west bank, which is called by some "the apartheid wall" was built for security reasons and as a direct response to wave of terrorist attacks in Israel. No attacks - no wall. Is this all insane? Sure. Is it just a story of "Oppression" or "Apartheid"? It's not. The primary mechanism at play here is a violent struggle between Israel, Arab countries, and the Palestinians. Nationalism and religion. The Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza, by the way and as far as I know, have no desire to be Israelis and anyways there is no legal framework or agreement in place that will facilitate land taken from Jordan or Egypt to become part of Israel (I think that's illegal under international law and I'm sure the world would not recognize the annexation of those territories). The peace agreements between Israel and Jordan don't allow for that either. It doesn't address the demands of the Palestinians either.

by tootie 3y ago

nsguy 3y ago

Gaza was definitely not a colony of Israel by any stretch of that word. The West bank is frozen in the midst of a peace process that fell apart but the word colony is not an accurate description either. Open air prison is also not a thing. The oppressor in Gaza is Hamas. An oppressor in the west bank is the PA. Israel is also in that mix, yes. It is putting extreme restrictions on a population inside an occupied territory that is using violence against it. The narrative does not fit. In terms of international law, Israel has occupied the territory of Jordan in the west bank. If the residents of that territory e.g. conduct suicide bombings against Israelis then Israel is allowed to take measures against that. It is in fact allowed to take significantly more severe measures than it has (e.g. including a death penalty). I would say in some sense you're right an the Palestinians are oppressed. I would also say the restrictions on them are in place mostly for security reasons. If there was no violence against Israelis there would be no restrictions (and that in fact was pretty much the case before the first intifada when violence levels were much lower restrictions and "oppression" was also significantly lower). There is also the problem of settlements in the west bank and Israeli ideologies of "the full land of Israel" (strangely enough aligned with your idea of the Palestinians being disenfranchised Israelis). The wall that was built around the west bank, which is called by some "the apartheid wall" was built for security reasons and as a direct response to wave of terrorist attacks in Israel. No attacks - no wall. Is this all insane? Sure. Is it just a story of "Oppression" or "Apartheid"? It's not. The primary mechanism at play here is a violent struggle between Israel, Arab countries, and the Palestinians. Nationalism and religion. The Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza, by the way and as far as I know, have no desire to be Israelis and anyways there is no legal framework or agreement in place that will facilitate land taken from Jordan or Egypt to become part of Israel (I think that's illegal under international law and I'm sure the world would not recognize the annexation of those territories). The peace agreements between Israel and Jordan don't allow for that either. It doesn't address the demands of the Palestinians either.