5 ms·

Anyone with the slightest bit of interest in the tales should read the recent English translation of the first edition. https://www.betterworldbooks.com/produc

Anyone with the slightest bit of interest in the tales should read the recent English translation of the first edition. https://www.betterworldbooks.com/product/detail/the-original-folk-and-fairy-tales-of-the-brothers-grimm-the-complete-first-edition-0691160597 https://www.betterworldbooks.com/product/detail/the-original... or https://archive.org/details/originalfolkfair0000unse https://archive.org/details/originalfolkfair0000unse It's obvious reading the originals that it they were more a collection of tales with no particular moral, some unspeakable brutality, and a ton of hallucinatory weirdness. Why does an anthropomorphic needle go down the road? Heck if I know! The later versions, as explained in the preface of the above book, were sanitized and Christianized for popular consumption.

hodgesrm 2y ago
I think there are morals in Grimms Fairy Tales even in the earliest versions. What is striking to me when I read them is that many of the stories come from people at the bottom level of society and reflected their struggle for survival. These include terrifying consequences for misbehavior and that violating group norms (including those imposed from above) is a big no-no. A lot of the stories feature tricksters who cleverly got around these restrictions. These patterns don't show up clearly in individual stories. But it's pretty strong if you read them from end to end.
- octopoc 2y ago
  Yeah, this is definitely the case IME. It's easy to read these stories and go away thinking "WTF." But it's important to remember that these stories come from oral societies, which means 90% of the communication is lost since it's only written on paper. But that communication can be reconstructed by a charitable mind. For example, in the first story in Grimm's Fairy Tales (at least the version I read), there's a mouse and a cat that are friends. The cat and mouse find some delicious food and they hide it somewhere far away from their house. The cat then proceeds to go "visiting relatives" (in reality he is eating up the delicious food) and the mouse is gullible and believes the cat. After a while the mouse discovers the cat ate up all the food and angrily accuses the cat of being deceitful. The cat then proceeds to eat the mouse. The end. I think this is a profound story on not ignoring the fact that the cat is the natural predator and the mouse is the natural prey in the relationship. The mouse has convinced itself that this time will be different. This has relevance for e.g. not dismissing signs of abuse. But it's so easy to read that story and be like, "Well, I guess the point is that gullible people get screwed, so don't be gullible." Or even, "It's a dog-eat-dog world." It's a good story to tell a friend who's trying to rationalize being passive in an abusive relationship.
  - ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
    > in the first story in Grimm's Fairy Tales It's the second story. The first is the "frog prince". > The cat then proceeds to eat the mouse. Even the english Wikipedia article does not mention the most important part: When she beholds the empty pot, enlightenment dawns on the mouse: "First 'Top-off,' " she murmurs, "then 'Half-gone,' and then ..." The cat warns her to say no more, but the mouse persists. The cat pounces on the mouse and eats her up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_and_Mouse_in_Partnership#Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_and_Mouse_in_Partnership#P... The mouse says "All-gone" and is than eaten because of that. And the first version does not contain the phrase "And that is the way of the world," the story closes. at the end, it ends with the cat eating the mouse
    - stoniejohnson 2y ago
      Yeah dang I just read the original version and the moral is a double whammy of don't fool yourself into being deceived/oppressed by a predator, but if you do, don't ever call them out on it!
      - DavidPiper 2y ago
        Wait, isn't the mouse screwed from the beginning though? One read I get is that the cat is making friends with the mouse so that, specifically in the lean times, it'll be able to eat his "friend", while also not sacrificing any hard-earned payoff in the good times.
        detourdog 2y ago
        The mouse only reached self knowledge at the end. One should work on it sooner.
      - detourdog 2y ago
        The universality of these truths I think is exemplified by the same principles being expressed by Sun Tzu and others.
  - 2y ago
ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
The german version of the first two books can be found (for example) here: http://www.zeno.org/Literatur/M/Grimm,+Jacob+und+Wilhelm/M%C3%A4rchen/Kinder-+und+Hausm%C3%A4rchen+(1812-15) http://www.zeno.org/Literatur/M/Grimm,+Jacob+und+Wilhelm/M%C...
ajmurmann 2y ago
Who made all these revisions? The bothers themselves?
- ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
  After the second revision only Wilhelm, Jacob did add some "scientific remarks" for these. The biggest problem had been the idea of the Grimms' of the books being both a "scientific" collection of stories (which never were meant exclusively for children) and a book for children.
- wnissen 2y ago
  Yes, they set about on an academic exercise and found themselves with a surprise bestseller. They spent the rest of their days churning out subsequent editions. It was kind of the Harry Potter of its day.
- bazoom42 2y ago
  They revised the stories themselves. The initially publication was an anthropolical work collecting folk tales but it became succesfull as childrens litterature. So in subsequent editions they revised the stories to be more child friendly (according to the standards at the tme). This does not mean the original publication was completely uncensored though. In any case orally transmittet stories does not have a single canonical version.
dyauspitr 2y ago
For my cheapskates like me, Amazon has that book for about half the price (in paperback). Cheaper if you get a used one.
- bravura 2y ago
  Link please?
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    https://a.co/d/buB0Wjn https://a.co/d/buB0Wjn
paulddraper 2y ago
Similar to Greek, Roman, Hindu, or another other ancient tales. A bit of morals, a bit of entertainment, a bit of propaganda, a bit of superstition. The difference between these tales and others is perhaps the "for children" angle.
Eiim 2y ago
I'm actually actively researching the Grimms tales - I'm glad you linked to Zipe's translation! I think he has the most accurate and complete English translation out there, but it's still being frequently overlooked for lower-quality public-domain translations.
simonh 2y ago
There’s also an excellent translation by Philip Pullman. My eldest daughter was obsessed with it when she was about 11 or 12.
_yb2s 2y ago
They have morals and lessons, they are just so alien to modern Christian morals that they are misunderstood. I suspect what you are calling “hallucinatory weirdness” is where the important parts are that are being misunderstood, as these are often about spiritual unconscious personal development. The book Iron John by Robert Bly is a great example of explaining the purpose and meaning of the “hallucinatory weirdness.”
tialaramex 2y ago
Yup. The early collected tales often violate a lot of what we'd today understand to be basic "rules" of storytelling, for example maybe somebody gets given a magical item, they're told it can be used three times - in any modern story we known we will see it used three times in the story, maybe the last time is a twist, but a reader or audience knows that's how this works - but in one of these tales it'll sometimes just get used twice because that's all the story needed. Chekhov's Gun is another rule, in these early tales maybe our hero is given a magic whistle, big deal is made of the whistle, there's a ceremony for it, and then he fights a dragon, and... he slays the dragon with a sword. What is the whistle for? Nothing, it's just a magic whistle, the real world is untidy like that. If you wrote a Hollywood movie which did that, reviewers would be appalled. These rules create a straitjacket that I think needs to be resisted more often, and so I'm glad to see that the stories targeting small children (e.g. "The Tiger Who Came To Tea") don't obey them as strictly, and that's why my favourite comic book issue is "Winter's Tale", Gaiman's telling of the story of how Winter Moran (Miracleman's daughter) went far away and came back. Gaiman chooses to tell this as a kid's picture book in a story-within-a-story because in this mode it needn't obey normal adult rules - Winter meets various ludicrously powerful people across the galaxy, they all seem perfectly delighted and assist her. Adults would suspect that maybe the galactic slaver traders and arms dealers aren't entirely aligned with Winter's preferences, but in a kids book that never comes up. Winter says "Everything" already belongs to her and the arms dealers just say OK, then this is already yours. Just like that. There is no big fight scene (back on Earth a climactic fight is happening, but it's not shown at all), there are no verbal or physical clashes, she just meets people around the universe who are all very agreeable and then she comes home.

hodgesrm 2y ago

I think there are morals in Grimms Fairy Tales even in the earliest versions. What is striking to me when I read them is that many of the stories come from people at the bottom level of society and reflected their struggle for survival. These include terrifying consequences for misbehavior and that violating group norms (including those imposed from above) is a big no-no. A lot of the stories feature tricksters who cleverly got around these restrictions. These patterns don't show up clearly in individual stories. But it's pretty strong if you read them from end to end.

octopoc 2y ago
Yeah, this is definitely the case IME. It's easy to read these stories and go away thinking "WTF." But it's important to remember that these stories come from oral societies, which means 90% of the communication is lost since it's only written on paper. But that communication can be reconstructed by a charitable mind. For example, in the first story in Grimm's Fairy Tales (at least the version I read), there's a mouse and a cat that are friends. The cat and mouse find some delicious food and they hide it somewhere far away from their house. The cat then proceeds to go "visiting relatives" (in reality he is eating up the delicious food) and the mouse is gullible and believes the cat. After a while the mouse discovers the cat ate up all the food and angrily accuses the cat of being deceitful. The cat then proceeds to eat the mouse. The end. I think this is a profound story on not ignoring the fact that the cat is the natural predator and the mouse is the natural prey in the relationship. The mouse has convinced itself that this time will be different. This has relevance for e.g. not dismissing signs of abuse. But it's so easy to read that story and be like, "Well, I guess the point is that gullible people get screwed, so don't be gullible." Or even, "It's a dog-eat-dog world." It's a good story to tell a friend who's trying to rationalize being passive in an abusive relationship.
- ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
  > in the first story in Grimm's Fairy Tales It's the second story. The first is the "frog prince". > The cat then proceeds to eat the mouse. Even the english Wikipedia article does not mention the most important part: When she beholds the empty pot, enlightenment dawns on the mouse: "First 'Top-off,' " she murmurs, "then 'Half-gone,' and then ..." The cat warns her to say no more, but the mouse persists. The cat pounces on the mouse and eats her up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_and_Mouse_in_Partnership#Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_and_Mouse_in_Partnership#P... The mouse says "All-gone" and is than eaten because of that. And the first version does not contain the phrase "And that is the way of the world," the story closes. at the end, it ends with the cat eating the mouse
  - stoniejohnson 2y ago
    Yeah dang I just read the original version and the moral is a double whammy of don't fool yourself into being deceived/oppressed by a predator, but if you do, don't ever call them out on it!
    - DavidPiper 2y ago
      Wait, isn't the mouse screwed from the beginning though? One read I get is that the cat is making friends with the mouse so that, specifically in the lean times, it'll be able to eat his "friend", while also not sacrificing any hard-earned payoff in the good times.
      - detourdog 2y ago
        The mouse only reached self knowledge at the end. One should work on it sooner.
    - detourdog 2y ago
      The universality of these truths I think is exemplified by the same principles being expressed by Sun Tzu and others.
- 2y ago

ReleaseCandidat 2y ago

The german version of the first two books can be found (for example) here: http://www.zeno.org/Literatur/M/Grimm,+Jacob+und+Wilhelm/M%C3%A4rchen/Kinder-+und+Hausm%C3%A4rchen+(1812-15) http://www.zeno.org/Literatur/M/Grimm,+Jacob+und+Wilhelm/M%C...

ajmurmann 2y ago

Who made all these revisions? The bothers themselves?

ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
After the second revision only Wilhelm, Jacob did add some "scientific remarks" for these. The biggest problem had been the idea of the Grimms' of the books being both a "scientific" collection of stories (which never were meant exclusively for children) and a book for children.
wnissen 2y ago
Yes, they set about on an academic exercise and found themselves with a surprise bestseller. They spent the rest of their days churning out subsequent editions. It was kind of the Harry Potter of its day.
bazoom42 2y ago
They revised the stories themselves. The initially publication was an anthropolical work collecting folk tales but it became succesfull as childrens litterature. So in subsequent editions they revised the stories to be more child friendly (according to the standards at the tme). This does not mean the original publication was completely uncensored though. In any case orally transmittet stories does not have a single canonical version.

dyauspitr 2y ago

For my cheapskates like me, Amazon has that book for about half the price (in paperback). Cheaper if you get a used one.

bravura 2y ago
Link please?
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  https://a.co/d/buB0Wjn https://a.co/d/buB0Wjn

paulddraper 2y ago

Similar to Greek, Roman, Hindu, or another other ancient tales. A bit of morals, a bit of entertainment, a bit of propaganda, a bit of superstition. The difference between these tales and others is perhaps the "for children" angle.

Eiim 2y ago

I'm actually actively researching the Grimms tales - I'm glad you linked to Zipe's translation! I think he has the most accurate and complete English translation out there, but it's still being frequently overlooked for lower-quality public-domain translations.

simonh 2y ago

There’s also an excellent translation by Philip Pullman. My eldest daughter was obsessed with it when she was about 11 or 12.

_yb2s 2y ago

They have morals and lessons, they are just so alien to modern Christian morals that they are misunderstood. I suspect what you are calling “hallucinatory weirdness” is where the important parts are that are being misunderstood, as these are often about spiritual unconscious personal development. The book Iron John by Robert Bly is a great example of explaining the purpose and meaning of the “hallucinatory weirdness.”

tialaramex 2y ago

Yup. The early collected tales often violate a lot of what we'd today understand to be basic "rules" of storytelling, for example maybe somebody gets given a magical item, they're told it can be used three times - in any modern story we known we will see it used three times in the story, maybe the last time is a twist, but a reader or audience knows that's how this works - but in one of these tales it'll sometimes just get used twice because that's all the story needed. Chekhov's Gun is another rule, in these early tales maybe our hero is given a magic whistle, big deal is made of the whistle, there's a ceremony for it, and then he fights a dragon, and... he slays the dragon with a sword. What is the whistle for? Nothing, it's just a magic whistle, the real world is untidy like that. If you wrote a Hollywood movie which did that, reviewers would be appalled. These rules create a straitjacket that I think needs to be resisted more often, and so I'm glad to see that the stories targeting small children (e.g. "The Tiger Who Came To Tea") don't obey them as strictly, and that's why my favourite comic book issue is "Winter's Tale", Gaiman's telling of the story of how Winter Moran (Miracleman's daughter) went far away and came back. Gaiman chooses to tell this as a kid's picture book in a story-within-a-story because in this mode it needn't obey normal adult rules - Winter meets various ludicrously powerful people across the galaxy, they all seem perfectly delighted and assist her. Adults would suspect that maybe the galactic slaver traders and arms dealers aren't entirely aligned with Winter's preferences, but in a kids book that never comes up. Winter says "Everything" already belongs to her and the arms dealers just say OK, then this is already yours. Just like that. There is no big fight scene (back on Earth a climactic fight is happening, but it's not shown at all), there are no verbal or physical clashes, she just meets people around the universe who are all very agreeable and then she comes home.