5 ms·

Are they safer? Sodium is also very highly reactive. Otherwise agreed, I'm very happy with form factor of 5-10 year old phones.

majoe 3y ago
One of the claimed benefits of sodium based batteries, that I remember from the press statements of CATL, is that they don't burn, even when you but them in a fire. The also should work in a wider temperature range, which is especially interesting for cold regions. In the article it says, that they are using a "patented Prussian blue". Isn't CATL also using Prussian blue in their first generation sodium batteries?
demondemidi 3y ago
NaCl is pretty safe. ;)
- ash__ 3y ago
  [flagged]
- tharkun__ 3y ago
  Depends on the quantity and who you ask what the safe level is ;)
- strangattractor 3y ago
  My cardiologist doesn't think so :(
  - pkaye 3y ago
    Low NaCl in a human body is also really bad.
hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
The battery made by the company mentioned uses an aqueous electrolyte construction which is theoretically safer from what I read, but I don't know if it can be made small for a portable. The fact it supports more cycles and tolerates a broader temperature range than Lithium counts points towards safety too. Lithium isn't happy above like 30 Celsius, which a fast charging portable device can _easily_ reach.
- justinclift 3y ago
  > Lithium isn't happy above like 30 Celsius, which a fast charging portable device can _easily_ reach. Sounds pretty bad for people living in warmer climates then, as they tend to be above 30 celsius anyway. ;)
  - cesarb 3y ago
    > Sounds pretty bad for people living in warmer climates then, as they tend to be above 30 celsius anyway. ;) As a data point, the ambient temperature right now where I live is 33°C. I just walked home from a quick grocery trip a couple of blocks away. And that's not an atypical temperature (at least for the warmer months of the year; we're supposed to be in the colder months now, but the climate's been all wonky lately). If my phone's battery didn't like ambient temperatures above 30°C, it would have failed long ago. There's no air conditioning in the street.
    - hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
      It doesn't fail abruptly, but it doesn't achieve optimal performance either. It has pretty strict optimal temperature range, something like 10C to 30C.
troymc 3y ago
Here's Natron's page about safety: https://natron.energy/our-technology/safety https://natron.energy/our-technology/safety I don't think the battery is a big block of pure sodium. That would be unsafe. The battery electrolyte contains sodium ions, but the same is true of salt water and Gatorade. I think the industrial source of their sodium is sodium hydoxide, a common industrial feedstock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
thejohnconway 3y ago
For iPhones, at least, I believe that period was when they were thinnest (the iPhone 6 is the thinnest one, 2014).
rini17 3y ago
Since na-ion cells are available on aliexpress, youtubers already did puncture tests, and indeed they did not catch fire. Seems like sodium is better "hidden" in the cathode/anode so it won't react witth the air so quickly as lithium when battery innards are exposed.
- BenjiWiebe 3y ago
  Were they actually sodium batteries? Maybe they were fraudulently labeled Li-ion. Also it's my understanding that neither sodium batteries nor li-ion batteries have metallic sodium/lithium in them (besides small amounts which build up in heavily used li-ion cells or something).
  - rini17 3y ago
    They have specific discharge curve which would be too much effort to fake.
pfdietz 3y ago
I believe sodium here is always in the oxidized +1 state, like the lithium in Li-ion batteries. It's not present as a metal. The things being oxidized/reduced are transition metals in one or more electrodes.

majoe 3y ago

One of the claimed benefits of sodium based batteries, that I remember from the press statements of CATL, is that they don't burn, even when you but them in a fire. The also should work in a wider temperature range, which is especially interesting for cold regions. In the article it says, that they are using a "patented Prussian blue". Isn't CATL also using Prussian blue in their first generation sodium batteries?

demondemidi 3y ago

NaCl is pretty safe. ;)

ash__ 3y ago
[flagged]
tharkun__ 3y ago
Depends on the quantity and who you ask what the safe level is ;)
strangattractor 3y ago
My cardiologist doesn't think so :(
- pkaye 3y ago
  Low NaCl in a human body is also really bad.

hcarvalhoalves 3y ago

The battery made by the company mentioned uses an aqueous electrolyte construction which is theoretically safer from what I read, but I don't know if it can be made small for a portable. The fact it supports more cycles and tolerates a broader temperature range than Lithium counts points towards safety too. Lithium isn't happy above like 30 Celsius, which a fast charging portable device can _easily_ reach.

justinclift 3y ago
> Lithium isn't happy above like 30 Celsius, which a fast charging portable device can _easily_ reach. Sounds pretty bad for people living in warmer climates then, as they tend to be above 30 celsius anyway. ;)
- cesarb 3y ago
  > Sounds pretty bad for people living in warmer climates then, as they tend to be above 30 celsius anyway. ;) As a data point, the ambient temperature right now where I live is 33°C. I just walked home from a quick grocery trip a couple of blocks away. And that's not an atypical temperature (at least for the warmer months of the year; we're supposed to be in the colder months now, but the climate's been all wonky lately). If my phone's battery didn't like ambient temperatures above 30°C, it would have failed long ago. There's no air conditioning in the street.
  - hcarvalhoalves 3y ago
    It doesn't fail abruptly, but it doesn't achieve optimal performance either. It has pretty strict optimal temperature range, something like 10C to 30C.

troymc 3y ago

Here's Natron's page about safety: https://natron.energy/our-technology/safety https://natron.energy/our-technology/safety I don't think the battery is a big block of pure sodium. That would be unsafe. The battery electrolyte contains sodium ions, but the same is true of salt water and Gatorade. I think the industrial source of their sodium is sodium hydoxide, a common industrial feedstock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

thejohnconway 3y ago

For iPhones, at least, I believe that period was when they were thinnest (the iPhone 6 is the thinnest one, 2014).

rini17 3y ago

Since na-ion cells are available on aliexpress, youtubers already did puncture tests, and indeed they did not catch fire. Seems like sodium is better "hidden" in the cathode/anode so it won't react witth the air so quickly as lithium when battery innards are exposed.

BenjiWiebe 3y ago
Were they actually sodium batteries? Maybe they were fraudulently labeled Li-ion. Also it's my understanding that neither sodium batteries nor li-ion batteries have metallic sodium/lithium in them (besides small amounts which build up in heavily used li-ion cells or something).
- rini17 3y ago
  They have specific discharge curve which would be too much effort to fake.

pfdietz 3y ago

I believe sodium here is always in the oxidized +1 state, like the lithium in Li-ion batteries. It's not present as a metal. The things being oxidized/reduced are transition metals in one or more electrodes.