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Even if it isn't as high-capacity, a longer-lasting and safer battery over a thinner smartphone isn't a _bad_ trade-off, specially considering chips and screens

Even if it isn't as high-capacity, a longer-lasting and safer battery over a thinner smartphone isn't a _bad_ trade-off, specially considering chips and screens get more efficient. This might have more market than stationary batteries.

rich_sasha 2y ago
Are they safer? Sodium is also very highly reactive. Otherwise agreed, I'm very happy with form factor of 5-10 year old phones.
- majoe 2y ago
  One of the claimed benefits of sodium based batteries, that I remember from the press statements of CATL, is that they don't burn, even when you but them in a fire. The also should work in a wider temperature range, which is especially interesting for cold regions. In the article it says, that they are using a "patented Prussian blue". Isn't CATL also using Prussian blue in their first generation sodium batteries?
- demondemidi 2y ago
  NaCl is pretty safe. ;)
  - ash__ 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - tharkun__ 2y ago
    Depends on the quantity and who you ask what the safe level is ;)
  - strangattractor 2y ago
    My cardiologist doesn't think so :(
    - pkaye 2y ago
      Low NaCl in a human body is also really bad.
- hcarvalhoalves 2y ago
  The battery made by the company mentioned uses an aqueous electrolyte construction which is theoretically safer from what I read, but I don't know if it can be made small for a portable. The fact it supports more cycles and tolerates a broader temperature range than Lithium counts points towards safety too. Lithium isn't happy above like 30 Celsius, which a fast charging portable device can _easily_ reach.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    > Lithium isn't happy above like 30 Celsius, which a fast charging portable device can _easily_ reach. Sounds pretty bad for people living in warmer climates then, as they tend to be above 30 celsius anyway. ;)
    - cesarb 2y ago
      > Sounds pretty bad for people living in warmer climates then, as they tend to be above 30 celsius anyway. ;) As a data point, the ambient temperature right now where I live is 33°C. I just walked home from a quick grocery trip a couple of blocks away. And that's not an atypical temperature (at least for the warmer months of the year; we're supposed to be in the colder months now, but the climate's been all wonky lately). If my phone's battery didn't like ambient temperatures above 30°C, it would have failed long ago. There's no air conditioning in the street.
      - hcarvalhoalves 2y ago
        It doesn't fail abruptly, but it doesn't achieve optimal performance either. It has pretty strict optimal temperature range, something like 10C to 30C.
- troymc 2y ago
  Here's Natron's page about safety: https://natron.energy/our-technology/safety https://natron.energy/our-technology/safety I don't think the battery is a big block of pure sodium. That would be unsafe. The battery electrolyte contains sodium ions, but the same is true of salt water and Gatorade. I think the industrial source of their sodium is sodium hydoxide, a common industrial feedstock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- thejohnconway 2y ago
  For iPhones, at least, I believe that period was when they were thinnest (the iPhone 6 is the thinnest one, 2014).
- rini17 2y ago
  Since na-ion cells are available on aliexpress, youtubers already did puncture tests, and indeed they did not catch fire. Seems like sodium is better "hidden" in the cathode/anode so it won't react witth the air so quickly as lithium when battery innards are exposed.
  - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
    Were they actually sodium batteries? Maybe they were fraudulently labeled Li-ion. Also it's my understanding that neither sodium batteries nor li-ion batteries have metallic sodium/lithium in them (besides small amounts which build up in heavily used li-ion cells or something).
    - rini17 2y ago
      They have specific discharge curve which would be too much effort to fake.
- pfdietz 2y ago
  I believe sodium here is always in the oxidized +1 state, like the lithium in Li-ion batteries. It's not present as a metal. The things being oxidized/reduced are transition metals in one or more electrodes.
addaon 2y ago
If customers were supportive of this trade-off, why would we not already see companies exploring it with LTO batteries?
GuB-42 2y ago
But who wants a fat smartphone with lower battery life? Smartphones are where people want as much energy density as possible. Smartphones are also expensive devices with a relatively small battery, so it makes sense to add a few dollars for more energy density. Also most smartphone manufacturers are very much into planned obsolescence, so much that countries are starting to legislate, they don't really want long lasting batteries, especially not if it compromises the user experience. There could be a market for power tools, where having more batteries of lower capacity for the same price can be desirable. Also maybe for hybrid vehicles.
- MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
  Personally, I wouldn't mind a fatter phone. It actually might be easier for me to hold. I've never seen the appeal of phones so thin I could shave with them.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > never seen the appeal of phones so thin I could shave with them For people who wear slimmer-fitting clothing, this matters. Also, it’s more about the weight: you want a phone light enough that holding it up isn’t tedious.
    - MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
      I suppose. Then again, so long as it's not so heavy as to cause pain, I think there would be a least some market for such devices. I thought the Steam Deck would be prohibitively heavy to use for it's weight, but the ergonomics made up for much of that.
      - craftkiller 2y ago
        If I use the steam deck for more than a couple of hours then I feel it in my wrists the next day. I still love the steam deck but it could go on a diet. (There are lighter alternatives, but I bought the steam deck specifically to financially support Valve's Linux gaming efforts)
barfingclouds 2y ago
Well I think for as amazing as this technology is, we probably don’t need it in a cellphone.

rich_sasha 2y ago

Are they safer? Sodium is also very highly reactive. Otherwise agreed, I'm very happy with form factor of 5-10 year old phones.

majoe 2y ago
One of the claimed benefits of sodium based batteries, that I remember from the press statements of CATL, is that they don't burn, even when you but them in a fire. The also should work in a wider temperature range, which is especially interesting for cold regions. In the article it says, that they are using a "patented Prussian blue". Isn't CATL also using Prussian blue in their first generation sodium batteries?
demondemidi 2y ago
NaCl is pretty safe. ;)
- ash__ 2y ago
  [flagged]
- tharkun__ 2y ago
  Depends on the quantity and who you ask what the safe level is ;)
- strangattractor 2y ago
  My cardiologist doesn't think so :(
  - pkaye 2y ago
    Low NaCl in a human body is also really bad.
hcarvalhoalves 2y ago
The battery made by the company mentioned uses an aqueous electrolyte construction which is theoretically safer from what I read, but I don't know if it can be made small for a portable. The fact it supports more cycles and tolerates a broader temperature range than Lithium counts points towards safety too. Lithium isn't happy above like 30 Celsius, which a fast charging portable device can _easily_ reach.
- justinclift 2y ago
  > Lithium isn't happy above like 30 Celsius, which a fast charging portable device can _easily_ reach. Sounds pretty bad for people living in warmer climates then, as they tend to be above 30 celsius anyway. ;)
  - cesarb 2y ago
    > Sounds pretty bad for people living in warmer climates then, as they tend to be above 30 celsius anyway. ;) As a data point, the ambient temperature right now where I live is 33°C. I just walked home from a quick grocery trip a couple of blocks away. And that's not an atypical temperature (at least for the warmer months of the year; we're supposed to be in the colder months now, but the climate's been all wonky lately). If my phone's battery didn't like ambient temperatures above 30°C, it would have failed long ago. There's no air conditioning in the street.
    - hcarvalhoalves 2y ago
      It doesn't fail abruptly, but it doesn't achieve optimal performance either. It has pretty strict optimal temperature range, something like 10C to 30C.
troymc 2y ago
Here's Natron's page about safety: https://natron.energy/our-technology/safety https://natron.energy/our-technology/safety I don't think the battery is a big block of pure sodium. That would be unsafe. The battery electrolyte contains sodium ions, but the same is true of salt water and Gatorade. I think the industrial source of their sodium is sodium hydoxide, a common industrial feedstock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
thejohnconway 2y ago
For iPhones, at least, I believe that period was when they were thinnest (the iPhone 6 is the thinnest one, 2014).
rini17 2y ago
Since na-ion cells are available on aliexpress, youtubers already did puncture tests, and indeed they did not catch fire. Seems like sodium is better "hidden" in the cathode/anode so it won't react witth the air so quickly as lithium when battery innards are exposed.
- BenjiWiebe 2y ago
  Were they actually sodium batteries? Maybe they were fraudulently labeled Li-ion. Also it's my understanding that neither sodium batteries nor li-ion batteries have metallic sodium/lithium in them (besides small amounts which build up in heavily used li-ion cells or something).
  - rini17 2y ago
    They have specific discharge curve which would be too much effort to fake.
pfdietz 2y ago
I believe sodium here is always in the oxidized +1 state, like the lithium in Li-ion batteries. It's not present as a metal. The things being oxidized/reduced are transition metals in one or more electrodes.

addaon 2y ago

If customers were supportive of this trade-off, why would we not already see companies exploring it with LTO batteries?

GuB-42 2y ago

But who wants a fat smartphone with lower battery life? Smartphones are where people want as much energy density as possible. Smartphones are also expensive devices with a relatively small battery, so it makes sense to add a few dollars for more energy density. Also most smartphone manufacturers are very much into planned obsolescence, so much that countries are starting to legislate, they don't really want long lasting batteries, especially not if it compromises the user experience. There could be a market for power tools, where having more batteries of lower capacity for the same price can be desirable. Also maybe for hybrid vehicles.

MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
Personally, I wouldn't mind a fatter phone. It actually might be easier for me to hold. I've never seen the appeal of phones so thin I could shave with them.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > never seen the appeal of phones so thin I could shave with them For people who wear slimmer-fitting clothing, this matters. Also, it’s more about the weight: you want a phone light enough that holding it up isn’t tedious.
  - MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
    I suppose. Then again, so long as it's not so heavy as to cause pain, I think there would be a least some market for such devices. I thought the Steam Deck would be prohibitively heavy to use for it's weight, but the ergonomics made up for much of that.
    - craftkiller 2y ago
      If I use the steam deck for more than a couple of hours then I feel it in my wrists the next day. I still love the steam deck but it could go on a diet. (There are lighter alternatives, but I bought the steam deck specifically to financially support Valve's Linux gaming efforts)

barfingclouds 2y ago

Well I think for as amazing as this technology is, we probably don’t need it in a cellphone.