11 ms·

I really do not like these compressed baby keyboards that are missing essential keys. My perfect keyboard would be something like a 150% with standard full lay

I really do not like these compressed baby keyboards that are missing essential keys. My perfect keyboard would be something like a 150% with standard full layout but then adding in a bunch of programmable macro keys, I want more than F12! I want F1 through F36. Also a built in coffee grinder, water heater, and there should be a fan under the keys to keep my hands cool. Okay, ignore those last three.

VyseofArcadia 2y ago
I've been wondering for a while now why these fractional keyboards are so popular. It's some sort of trendy faux-minimalism that I've never been able to wrap my head around.
- karlshea 2y ago
  75% is basically everything except the numpad, so if one isn't a big numpad user it's nice to have your mouse a bit closer.
  - GuB-42 2y ago
    75% is not exactly this. It mangles the home cluster (pgup, pgdn, home, end, insert, del), often missing "insert" entirely. It also relocates the arrow keys slightly. If you just want a keyboard without a numpad, it is called TenKeyLess (TKL) or 80%. For me, it matters. I use the home cluster a lot, including the insert key (for copy and pasting), and because I use many different keyboards (for work, etc...), muscle memory is important, and full size is the most common. So when using a compact keyboard, I like having the keys in the same place more than saving 2 columns. But to each his own, especially with keyboards.
    - karlshea 2y ago
      My comment was more to push back on the silly assertion that the only reason someone would like a fractional board is "trendy faux-minimalism". I have a TKL on my PC and other than Insert (which I can't remember ever pressing on purpose in the last 15 years) the only other keys a 75% is missing are the cluster with print screen/scroll lock/break. I'd be annoyed by a 75% if I used Insert for copy/paste etc and switched keyboards all the time, but I'm mostly on Mac so I'm used to Cmd+arrows instead of Home/End and Cmd+C/X/V. But it does have the extra strip on the right for some of those keys I do use, like Del. And now I can now hit every key on the board without really moving my hands much, including those that are normally on the Home cluster. I could even do with a 65% but I don't want to have to switch layers to hit Esc, and actually do use the function keys for an IDE.
  - Minor49er 2y ago
    That's fine if you don't mind bending your arm inwards for long periods of time. For me, it's most comfortable having my mouse being more in line with my shoulder than my center
- WesleyLivesay 2y ago
  Before I swapped to a split keyboard I liked the numpad-less/fractional keyboards because it allowed my mouse to be in a better spot on my desk as it required me to keep the keyboard centered without having to reach so far to the right to use the mouse.
- SkyPuncher 2y ago
  For me, I just have an external num pad. I was finding I was getting elbow pain by having to cock my arm a bit to use my mouse.
  - neves 2y ago
    TKL keyboard for the win
- komali2 2y ago
  For me it allows me to input whatever I need to input, without leaving home row. Since you use CTRL and SHIFT without problem, basically just imagine having a few more modifier keys. That's all.
- atlas_hugged 2y ago
  A subset of those is gamers that want the mouse closer to the center, rather than off to the right when using a full keyboard. Especially competitive gamers, because it helps reduce RSI
  - digging 2y ago
    > because it helps reduce RSI Really?! I spend so much time on my macbook for work using the trackpad as my primary mouse and it feels horrible for my arms. I could understand t improving APM but on my personal computer I really like having things spread out, it allows me to flex my arms a lot more.
    - icegreentea2 2y ago
      Smaller keyboards just give your mouse a larger workspace and more freedom to reposition. While there are "bad" and "good" positions for RSI, the reality is that being fixed into the "optimal" position with no ability to adjust will also eventually cause problems. Your ability to vary position is important to staying healthy. More workspace can help with that.
    - luqtas 2y ago
      having the arms straight rather than angled inwards (where the trackpad is) also is an ergonomic move...
  - bluesquared 2y ago
    Wouldn't you want your head/eyes centered on the monitor, not the mouse being held by your arm that's off-center?
    - dvdkon 2y ago
      I don't understand your comment. Nobody's looking at their mouse (or their keyboard) when gaming.
      - bluesquared 2y ago
- mattpallissard 2y ago
  I used to travel a lot. I limited myself to one backpack. A lot easier to pack a small keyboard. Since I used vim and tmux for years I was already used to modifier keys. That and I prefer the modifier key approach, you move and contort your hands less. Faster and more ergonomic.
- dyingkneepad 2y ago
  Decent fractional keyboards have buttons that change the meaning of every other key, they're called "layers". You get less keys but you get more options, and 100% less wrist moving.
- bluGill 2y ago
  It is nice for a laptop to have real keys but still small enough to fit in a backpack, which is why I hake a 60%. It does most of what I want. i have a full size keyboard but it takes up so much desk space I don't use it.
- lawn 2y ago
  I use a keyboard with 34 keys. Except for being split, the lower number of keys has fixed my RSI as I never have to move my fingers too far. Why couldn't I use a larger keyboard then? I could, and that's how I started, but having unused keys is just a waste and occupies precious table space. Of course, they're much easier to travel with too (although I haven't done that yet).
- regularfry 2y ago
  Personally I wanted an ergonomic mechanical keyboard I could shove in my bag and take to the office, and that meant something not-full-size. Once I'd made the decision that it wasn't going to be a full-size keyboard, that meant learning layers on a fractional layout, and it was the need to hammer the layering into my muscle memory that meant my fractional keyboard became my daily driver at home as well. I only swap it out now if I want to do things in Blender, because that's very keyboard-heavy in a way that really assumes all the keys are laid out in front of you, including the keypad.
- PurpleRamen 2y ago
  They are small and thus take less space on the desk, or in your bag (perfect for traveling and on-site-work). And not all keys are necessary for everyone. Numpad is a big part with little use for many people. And the newer generation of keyboards is often programmable, so you can remap them on very sophisticated levels on the keyboard itself. This reduces the demand for more keys even more. For example, on my keyboard I have no dedicated cursor-keys, but they are mapped to hjkl and wasd with a thumb-key. Function-keys are similar mapped to number-keys with the same thumb-key. This makes writing from homerow much faster, and I need to move my hands not so often. I basically just must my fingers, instead of the whole hand.
  - derefr 2y ago
    > For example, on my keyboard I have no dedicated cursor-keys, but they are mapped to hjkl and wasd with a thumb-key. That sounds so bizarre to me, as so many keychords I use every minute of every day involve modifiers plus arrow keys.
    - rfoo 2y ago
      Where do you put your thumb when you are using arrow keys? Maybe it's my small hands, but I can't use my right hand thumb to hit anything when I'm on arrow keys, and have to rely on using left hand to press modifiers. So, I use a keyboard with split space bars, and map the right one to a layer switch key, when I want arrow keys I then hold the right side spacebar, and use ijkl (similar shape to arrow keys). Feels like exactly the same [1] as using arrow keys except I don't have to move my hand. [1] Okay, 'I' is slightly off because row-staggered nonsense but honestly it just took me two days to get familiar to it.
    - BossingAround 2y ago
      I'd say the majority of office jobs won't really use arrow keys. Most people will rather use the mouse to move around, and engineers would use something closer to the center of the keyboard (like hjkl).
    - PurpleRamen 2y ago
      I have capslock mapped to ESC&CTRL, so my pinky is also around the important modifiers. And because of vim and gaming, hjkl & wsad are habitual for me anyway.
- jdietrich 2y ago
  The ergonomics of a full-size keyboard are atrocious, because they weren't designed with mice in mind. You've got a relatively unimportant set of keys occupying the exact piece of desk space that a mouse should be. Unless your shoulders are three feet wide, you'll either end up with your QWERTY keys too far to the left, your mouse too far to the right, or some awkward compromise. If you really need a num pad - most people don't - then you can get a separate one and position it to the left of your keyboard.
- qball 2y ago
  Size matters; I like the extra real estate for my mouse hand more than I need the numpad. Allows me to take a better posture and I'm no longer banging my mouse into the keyboard from time to time. If the "tenkey" cluster was on the left hand side of the keyboard in the same way the Sidewinder X8 allowed you to configure it (keypad was detachable), that would be perfect, but nobody makes that for some reason. And before you ask, I can't use 60% boards specifically because I need F2, F5, PageUp/PageDn, and Delete, none of which are actual buttons on that kind of keyboard. The only place a right-handed computer user is in need of desk real estate is to the right of the text-entry part of the keyboard (and where your hands go at the bottom, obviously); keyboards are free to expand upwards with function keys and leftwards with the non-text-entry part.
jwells89 2y ago
What’s “essential” varies a lot between users. As a mobile dev I’ve been using 60% and 65% boards almost exclusively since 2015 and haven’t missed the removed keys much at all. Really though, to me the problem with full-size keyboards isn’t the number of keys but their positioning. The traditional full sized layout was designed prior to mice being common, which immediately becomes evident when you try to center the alpha cluster of such boards with how doing so pushes the mousing area uncomfortably far off to the right. So-called “southpaw” boards fix this by putting the home/end/arrows column and numpad on the left side of the board instead, but sadly this layout hasn’t broken into the mainstream and is only available in comparatively expensive small-batch enthusiast boards. This is why for now I use 60%/65%/75% with a separate numpad on the left, which largely replicates the advantages of a southpaw board with added flexibility (the numpad can be put away when not needed).
- orphea 2y ago
  How do you guys not miss F keys? I can press e.g. Ctrl+F5 with one hand but I would have to use both hands to press Ctrl+Fn+5.
  - bregma 2y ago
    The only F keys I use are F11 and F12, and only by accident when I'm trying to backspace. And don't get me started on the capslock key.
    - vincent-manis 2y ago
      I love the Caps Lock key, because I remap it to Compose.
  - jwells89 2y ago
    I primarily use macOS, where shortcuts have been almost exclusively mnemonic (e.g. Command-R → Reload) since the earliest Mac models. F-key usage is relegated mostly to lazy ports from other platforms.
    - 2y ago
dyingkneepad 2y ago
I have a keyboard that's "missing" essential keys, but I have a special key that I can press with my thumb that changes that every single key does (it's called a Layer). So I never need to move my wrist to press the arrow keys: just hold the thumb button and press hjkl. Page up is layer+t, page down is layer+g. And so on. It's great, my wrists thank me. I can even program a macro that will trigger an OS shortcut that will send a packet to my Smart Coffee Grinder or tell Alexa to call 911. Or have the F479001600 key you mentioned. There are a bunch of keyboards with this functionality. I personally use a Dygma Raise.
- mmh0000 2y ago
  I'm familiar with layers; in fact, I have an extensive layer setup in KDE. But then the problem becomes that I can never remember which key under what layer does what action. So, I basically use four keys from my other layers and have given up on all the others I set up. My poor memory is my unique problem. Layering won't help. Having dedicated keys that I can see, though, helps me remember what those do. As someone else suggested, I can put custom labels on the extra keys.
  - dyingkneepad 2y ago
    You have it configured in KDE. The cool keyboards allow configuring layers in the keyboard firmware. Yeah it took me a while to get used to my layers, but now it's all muscle memory and I don't even remember which key does what.
    - jwells89 2y ago
      Layouts being configurable in firmware is a must for keyboards for me at this point. Having to rely on OS/DE configuration or especially crappy third party software sucks.
- Arainach 2y ago
  I like keyboards with layers support, but layers aren't a replacement for sufficient keys. Holding down the layer button means another finger unavailable for hotkeys. For instance, on my keyboard (ZSA Moonlander) I have the function keys in an alternate layer. This isn't a problem for a normal press (layer shift + 2 => F2), but it makes pressing something like Ctrl+Shift+F2 rather painful. Yes, for such shortcuts that I use frequently I can create special custom keys in layers, but when using new apps or particularly complicated apps with lots of hotkeys (IntelliJ) that doesn't scale.
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
You joke about the fan but I'd love a keyboard heater for winters. I keep it cold in here to save $ but I have a hard time keeping my hands comfortable.
- jwells89 2y ago
  Just use any thin and light gaming laptop made in the past 5 years in clamshell mode with the exhaust pointed at your keyboard. That’ll keep one’s hands toasty even doing mundane tasks, those things somehow manage to be space heaters even at moderate load levels.
- liamdgray 2y ago
  How about putting an electric terrarium heater mat under your keyboard? Might that help?
- swah 2y ago
  I bought a electric desk pad from Aliexpress for this reason... helps a bit. But heating the whole room feels better ofc..
- mmh0000 2y ago
  There's always some truth to a joke and I wouldn't mind heated/cooled keys. If you're not aware, such a thing already exists! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B87H383N https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B87H383N
  - jdietrich 2y ago
    I can highly recommend it, unless you've got a cat.
- bregma 2y ago
  Fingerless gloves are my go-to.
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  The mouse hand seems to get coldest. Might want to look into that.
input_sh 2y ago
That niche is usually filled with something like a Stream Deck alongside your keyboard, though personally, I'd recommend MIDI controllers. You get a lot of extra buttons very cheaply, using an open, easily-readable protocol. Get a label maker to put some labels on top of the buttons, and you're good to go! In my experience it's a much easier option when compared to trying to say to your computer "key A has two functions, depending on which keyboard I press it on".
- swah 2y ago
  Do you mean the thing that looks like a tiny piano or the thing that looks more squarish with 8x8 buttons that light up? Some project in this space https://github.com/michd/mmpd https://github.com/michd/mmpd
  - input_sh 2y ago
    Both work, they're all just sending digital versions of notes! You can find one for every perceivable amount of buttons you might need. My hobby is electronic music, so I tilt towards grids over tiny pianos (though I own both). The smallest one I own is AKAI LPD8, which gives me 8 buttons, 8 knobs, and a couple of modifier keys for less than half the price of a Stream Deck. It's not that Stream Deck is particularly expensive ($150), but I just can't justify it to myself when I'm aware of all the MIDI controller marvels you could get for like $100.
    - digging 2y ago
      Ha, I thought you were misspelling Steam Deck at first. Funny because I first got into electronic music by installing VCV Rack 2 on my Steam Deck.
- jasongrout 2y ago
  What do you use to map midi commands to keystrokes?
  - input_sh 2y ago
CodeWriter23 2y ago
Meh, getting my mouse closer to my keyboard pays off in reduced shoulder and neck pain.
trothamel 2y ago
I bought the Keychron V6 a couple weeks ago, and I'm loving it. It only has 4 extra keys, but it's nice to have a single button that builds and flashes a device, rather than a multi-key combo. Also runs QMK/Via, which means I can reprogram those buttons on device, rather than having to make the apps correspond to the keyboard.
crazygringo 2y ago
But why? The whole point is that you can access all the "essential" keys with modifiers like Fn. I find it so natural to Page Up/Dn using Fn+Up/Dn that when I'm on a keyboard with dedicated Page Up/Dn keys it just seems like this bizarre waste of space. Plus the keyboard is so big I have to keep moving my hands all over the place! A 75% keyboard keeps everything within distance of the home row, as it should be. Faraway keys are just inefficient and not ergonomic. There's no need for F36 when you can just use Shift+F12 or Ctrl+F12 or Fn+F12 or whatever you want. Also, a compact keyboard keeps your mouse closer which is good for ergonomics as well.
- extragood 2y ago
  I don't see any missing essentials on this keyboard (even pg up is there), but some of the even smaller form factors actually remove the arrow keys, and using fn for those gets irritating super quickly.
tombert 2y ago
I've never really understood why people pay more for the kind of gimped keyboard. They're sleeker, sure, but even if you almost never use the special keys they're missing, it will still be annoying the .1% of the time you need that key. I guess at that point you just grab another keyboard, but if you have to have a spare full sized keyboard anyway, why not just use that? I use a $30 mechanical keyboard I bought from a six-letter brand on Amazon four years ago and I've been much happier than when I tried one of those "optimized" compressed keyboards.
- jwells89 2y ago
  > …even if you almost never use the special keys they're missing, it will still be annoying the .1% of the time you need that key. I guess at that point you just grab another keyboard… Unnecessary with layers, e.g. FN + 1 = F1, which covers the 0.1% use case well enough.
  - tombert 2y ago
    Fair enough, to each their own. Personally I have always preferred to use a full size keyboard; the Macbook Pro keyboard is good enough but I will almost always plug in a clacky mechanical keyboard if I'm at home.
shlubbert 2y ago
Luckily the keyboard enthusiast community has something for everyone: https://mechboards.co.uk/products/hyper-7-v4 https://mechboards.co.uk/products/hyper-7-v4
- drdaeman 2y ago
  I'd wish someday HID standard would include a way for an input device to send arbitrary Unicode codepoints (with a few codes reserved for modifiers) rather than scan codes. The design made sense in PC/XT era, but it feels super dated today.
fanf2 2y ago
Something like a Hyper7 https://mechboards.co.uk/products/hyper-7-v4 https://mechboards.co.uk/products/hyper-7-v4 Or a 122 key Model M https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_code=UB40B5A https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Prod...
TacticalCoder 2y ago
> My perfect keyboard would be something like a 150% with standard full layout but then adding in a bunch of programmable macro keys, I want more than F12! I want F1 through F36. Not 36 but I've got one of these IBM Model M clickety clik keyboard with 24 function keys: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/9i1aef/24_function_keys/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/9i1aef/24_functio... But that said: I switched to a 60% HHKB more than a decade ago and I don't regret it. I prefer to use modifiers and less keys than more keys and longer hands / fingers travel. Maybe you'd like this Wey Tech MK06: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=15102 https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=15102
kodisha 2y ago
Yes, but, not to the right, let it grow to the left! I would like extra keys, but at the same time I hate that my mouse is that far to the right, and all because of the num keys that I NEVER use. That said, my Logitech MX Keys is the perfect keyboard, if they were ever to release TKL (80%) or some variation or even 75% layout - I would pay top buck for that! Anyone here working at Logitech? :)
- airstrike 2y ago
  +1! I also own the Logitech MX Keys and would buy a TKL right away. I love the low profile keys I do wish the keys were labeled for Mac or Windows only rather than "opt | start", "cmd | alt" but beggars can't be choosers That volume key next to F12 is annoying AF too... It makes my OCD flare up had
SkyMarshal 2y ago
I mostly don't mind them, except for the ones with shortened right-shift key. Those I have to contort my right pinky finger uncomfortably to use Shift, which I use much more frequently than the arrow keys (since I use Vim keybinds for literally everything possible).
kerhackernews 2y ago
The smaller keyboards are very popular for gaming because they are more ergonomic and free up more room on the desk. However, if someone is in the market for a gaming keyboard right now, I would only recommend Wooting as at this point in time there is no HE keyboard with latency has low as Wooting.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

VyseofArcadia 2y ago

I've been wondering for a while now why these fractional keyboards are so popular. It's some sort of trendy faux-minimalism that I've never been able to wrap my head around.

karlshea 2y ago
75% is basically everything except the numpad, so if one isn't a big numpad user it's nice to have your mouse a bit closer.
- GuB-42 2y ago
  75% is not exactly this. It mangles the home cluster (pgup, pgdn, home, end, insert, del), often missing "insert" entirely. It also relocates the arrow keys slightly. If you just want a keyboard without a numpad, it is called TenKeyLess (TKL) or 80%. For me, it matters. I use the home cluster a lot, including the insert key (for copy and pasting), and because I use many different keyboards (for work, etc...), muscle memory is important, and full size is the most common. So when using a compact keyboard, I like having the keys in the same place more than saving 2 columns. But to each his own, especially with keyboards.
  - karlshea 2y ago
    My comment was more to push back on the silly assertion that the only reason someone would like a fractional board is "trendy faux-minimalism". I have a TKL on my PC and other than Insert (which I can't remember ever pressing on purpose in the last 15 years) the only other keys a 75% is missing are the cluster with print screen/scroll lock/break. I'd be annoyed by a 75% if I used Insert for copy/paste etc and switched keyboards all the time, but I'm mostly on Mac so I'm used to Cmd+arrows instead of Home/End and Cmd+C/X/V. But it does have the extra strip on the right for some of those keys I do use, like Del. And now I can now hit every key on the board without really moving my hands much, including those that are normally on the Home cluster. I could even do with a 65% but I don't want to have to switch layers to hit Esc, and actually do use the function keys for an IDE.
- Minor49er 2y ago
  That's fine if you don't mind bending your arm inwards for long periods of time. For me, it's most comfortable having my mouse being more in line with my shoulder than my center
WesleyLivesay 2y ago
Before I swapped to a split keyboard I liked the numpad-less/fractional keyboards because it allowed my mouse to be in a better spot on my desk as it required me to keep the keyboard centered without having to reach so far to the right to use the mouse.
SkyPuncher 2y ago
For me, I just have an external num pad. I was finding I was getting elbow pain by having to cock my arm a bit to use my mouse.
- neves 2y ago
  TKL keyboard for the win
komali2 2y ago
For me it allows me to input whatever I need to input, without leaving home row. Since you use CTRL and SHIFT without problem, basically just imagine having a few more modifier keys. That's all.
atlas_hugged 2y ago
A subset of those is gamers that want the mouse closer to the center, rather than off to the right when using a full keyboard. Especially competitive gamers, because it helps reduce RSI
- digging 2y ago
  > because it helps reduce RSI Really?! I spend so much time on my macbook for work using the trackpad as my primary mouse and it feels horrible for my arms. I could understand t improving APM but on my personal computer I really like having things spread out, it allows me to flex my arms a lot more.
  - icegreentea2 2y ago
    Smaller keyboards just give your mouse a larger workspace and more freedom to reposition. While there are "bad" and "good" positions for RSI, the reality is that being fixed into the "optimal" position with no ability to adjust will also eventually cause problems. Your ability to vary position is important to staying healthy. More workspace can help with that.
  - luqtas 2y ago
    having the arms straight rather than angled inwards (where the trackpad is) also is an ergonomic move...
- bluesquared 2y ago
  Wouldn't you want your head/eyes centered on the monitor, not the mouse being held by your arm that's off-center?
  - dvdkon 2y ago
    I don't understand your comment. Nobody's looking at their mouse (or their keyboard) when gaming.
    - bluesquared 2y ago
mattpallissard 2y ago
I used to travel a lot. I limited myself to one backpack. A lot easier to pack a small keyboard. Since I used vim and tmux for years I was already used to modifier keys. That and I prefer the modifier key approach, you move and contort your hands less. Faster and more ergonomic.
dyingkneepad 2y ago
Decent fractional keyboards have buttons that change the meaning of every other key, they're called "layers". You get less keys but you get more options, and 100% less wrist moving.
bluGill 2y ago
It is nice for a laptop to have real keys but still small enough to fit in a backpack, which is why I hake a 60%. It does most of what I want. i have a full size keyboard but it takes up so much desk space I don't use it.
lawn 2y ago
I use a keyboard with 34 keys. Except for being split, the lower number of keys has fixed my RSI as I never have to move my fingers too far. Why couldn't I use a larger keyboard then? I could, and that's how I started, but having unused keys is just a waste and occupies precious table space. Of course, they're much easier to travel with too (although I haven't done that yet).
regularfry 2y ago
Personally I wanted an ergonomic mechanical keyboard I could shove in my bag and take to the office, and that meant something not-full-size. Once I'd made the decision that it wasn't going to be a full-size keyboard, that meant learning layers on a fractional layout, and it was the need to hammer the layering into my muscle memory that meant my fractional keyboard became my daily driver at home as well. I only swap it out now if I want to do things in Blender, because that's very keyboard-heavy in a way that really assumes all the keys are laid out in front of you, including the keypad.
PurpleRamen 2y ago
They are small and thus take less space on the desk, or in your bag (perfect for traveling and on-site-work). And not all keys are necessary for everyone. Numpad is a big part with little use for many people. And the newer generation of keyboards is often programmable, so you can remap them on very sophisticated levels on the keyboard itself. This reduces the demand for more keys even more. For example, on my keyboard I have no dedicated cursor-keys, but they are mapped to hjkl and wasd with a thumb-key. Function-keys are similar mapped to number-keys with the same thumb-key. This makes writing from homerow much faster, and I need to move my hands not so often. I basically just must my fingers, instead of the whole hand.
- derefr 2y ago
  > For example, on my keyboard I have no dedicated cursor-keys, but they are mapped to hjkl and wasd with a thumb-key. That sounds so bizarre to me, as so many keychords I use every minute of every day involve modifiers plus arrow keys.
  - rfoo 2y ago
    Where do you put your thumb when you are using arrow keys? Maybe it's my small hands, but I can't use my right hand thumb to hit anything when I'm on arrow keys, and have to rely on using left hand to press modifiers. So, I use a keyboard with split space bars, and map the right one to a layer switch key, when I want arrow keys I then hold the right side spacebar, and use ijkl (similar shape to arrow keys). Feels like exactly the same [1] as using arrow keys except I don't have to move my hand. [1] Okay, 'I' is slightly off because row-staggered nonsense but honestly it just took me two days to get familiar to it.
  - BossingAround 2y ago
    I'd say the majority of office jobs won't really use arrow keys. Most people will rather use the mouse to move around, and engineers would use something closer to the center of the keyboard (like hjkl).
  - PurpleRamen 2y ago
    I have capslock mapped to ESC&CTRL, so my pinky is also around the important modifiers. And because of vim and gaming, hjkl & wsad are habitual for me anyway.
jdietrich 2y ago
The ergonomics of a full-size keyboard are atrocious, because they weren't designed with mice in mind. You've got a relatively unimportant set of keys occupying the exact piece of desk space that a mouse should be. Unless your shoulders are three feet wide, you'll either end up with your QWERTY keys too far to the left, your mouse too far to the right, or some awkward compromise. If you really need a num pad - most people don't - then you can get a separate one and position it to the left of your keyboard.
qball 2y ago
Size matters; I like the extra real estate for my mouse hand more than I need the numpad. Allows me to take a better posture and I'm no longer banging my mouse into the keyboard from time to time. If the "tenkey" cluster was on the left hand side of the keyboard in the same way the Sidewinder X8 allowed you to configure it (keypad was detachable), that would be perfect, but nobody makes that for some reason. And before you ask, I can't use 60% boards specifically because I need F2, F5, PageUp/PageDn, and Delete, none of which are actual buttons on that kind of keyboard. The only place a right-handed computer user is in need of desk real estate is to the right of the text-entry part of the keyboard (and where your hands go at the bottom, obviously); keyboards are free to expand upwards with function keys and leftwards with the non-text-entry part.

jwells89 2y ago

What’s “essential” varies a lot between users. As a mobile dev I’ve been using 60% and 65% boards almost exclusively since 2015 and haven’t missed the removed keys much at all. Really though, to me the problem with full-size keyboards isn’t the number of keys but their positioning. The traditional full sized layout was designed prior to mice being common, which immediately becomes evident when you try to center the alpha cluster of such boards with how doing so pushes the mousing area uncomfortably far off to the right. So-called “southpaw” boards fix this by putting the home/end/arrows column and numpad on the left side of the board instead, but sadly this layout hasn’t broken into the mainstream and is only available in comparatively expensive small-batch enthusiast boards. This is why for now I use 60%/65%/75% with a separate numpad on the left, which largely replicates the advantages of a southpaw board with added flexibility (the numpad can be put away when not needed).

orphea 2y ago
How do you guys not miss F keys? I can press e.g. Ctrl+F5 with one hand but I would have to use both hands to press Ctrl+Fn+5.
- bregma 2y ago
  The only F keys I use are F11 and F12, and only by accident when I'm trying to backspace. And don't get me started on the capslock key.
  - vincent-manis 2y ago
    I love the Caps Lock key, because I remap it to Compose.
- jwells89 2y ago
  I primarily use macOS, where shortcuts have been almost exclusively mnemonic (e.g. Command-R → Reload) since the earliest Mac models. F-key usage is relegated mostly to lazy ports from other platforms.
  - 2y ago

dyingkneepad 2y ago

I have a keyboard that's "missing" essential keys, but I have a special key that I can press with my thumb that changes that every single key does (it's called a Layer). So I never need to move my wrist to press the arrow keys: just hold the thumb button and press hjkl. Page up is layer+t, page down is layer+g. And so on. It's great, my wrists thank me. I can even program a macro that will trigger an OS shortcut that will send a packet to my Smart Coffee Grinder or tell Alexa to call 911. Or have the F479001600 key you mentioned. There are a bunch of keyboards with this functionality. I personally use a Dygma Raise.

mmh0000 2y ago
I'm familiar with layers; in fact, I have an extensive layer setup in KDE. But then the problem becomes that I can never remember which key under what layer does what action. So, I basically use four keys from my other layers and have given up on all the others I set up. My poor memory is my unique problem. Layering won't help. Having dedicated keys that I can see, though, helps me remember what those do. As someone else suggested, I can put custom labels on the extra keys.
- dyingkneepad 2y ago
  You have it configured in KDE. The cool keyboards allow configuring layers in the keyboard firmware. Yeah it took me a while to get used to my layers, but now it's all muscle memory and I don't even remember which key does what.
  - jwells89 2y ago
    Layouts being configurable in firmware is a must for keyboards for me at this point. Having to rely on OS/DE configuration or especially crappy third party software sucks.
Arainach 2y ago
I like keyboards with layers support, but layers aren't a replacement for sufficient keys. Holding down the layer button means another finger unavailable for hotkeys. For instance, on my keyboard (ZSA Moonlander) I have the function keys in an alternate layer. This isn't a problem for a normal press (layer shift + 2 => F2), but it makes pressing something like Ctrl+Shift+F2 rather painful. Yes, for such shortcuts that I use frequently I can create special custom keys in layers, but when using new apps or particularly complicated apps with lots of hotkeys (IntelliJ) that doesn't scale.

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

You joke about the fan but I'd love a keyboard heater for winters. I keep it cold in here to save $ but I have a hard time keeping my hands comfortable.

jwells89 2y ago
Just use any thin and light gaming laptop made in the past 5 years in clamshell mode with the exhaust pointed at your keyboard. That’ll keep one’s hands toasty even doing mundane tasks, those things somehow manage to be space heaters even at moderate load levels.
liamdgray 2y ago
How about putting an electric terrarium heater mat under your keyboard? Might that help?
swah 2y ago
I bought a electric desk pad from Aliexpress for this reason... helps a bit. But heating the whole room feels better ofc..
mmh0000 2y ago
There's always some truth to a joke and I wouldn't mind heated/cooled keys. If you're not aware, such a thing already exists! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B87H383N https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B87H383N
- jdietrich 2y ago
  I can highly recommend it, unless you've got a cat.
bregma 2y ago
Fingerless gloves are my go-to.
mixmastamyk 2y ago
The mouse hand seems to get coldest. Might want to look into that.

input_sh 2y ago

That niche is usually filled with something like a Stream Deck alongside your keyboard, though personally, I'd recommend MIDI controllers. You get a lot of extra buttons very cheaply, using an open, easily-readable protocol. Get a label maker to put some labels on top of the buttons, and you're good to go! In my experience it's a much easier option when compared to trying to say to your computer "key A has two functions, depending on which keyboard I press it on".

swah 2y ago
Do you mean the thing that looks like a tiny piano or the thing that looks more squarish with 8x8 buttons that light up? Some project in this space https://github.com/michd/mmpd https://github.com/michd/mmpd
- input_sh 2y ago
  Both work, they're all just sending digital versions of notes! You can find one for every perceivable amount of buttons you might need. My hobby is electronic music, so I tilt towards grids over tiny pianos (though I own both). The smallest one I own is AKAI LPD8, which gives me 8 buttons, 8 knobs, and a couple of modifier keys for less than half the price of a Stream Deck. It's not that Stream Deck is particularly expensive ($150), but I just can't justify it to myself when I'm aware of all the MIDI controller marvels you could get for like $100.
  - digging 2y ago
    Ha, I thought you were misspelling Steam Deck at first. Funny because I first got into electronic music by installing VCV Rack 2 on my Steam Deck.
jasongrout 2y ago
What do you use to map midi commands to keystrokes?
- input_sh 2y ago

CodeWriter23 2y ago

Meh, getting my mouse closer to my keyboard pays off in reduced shoulder and neck pain.

trothamel 2y ago

I bought the Keychron V6 a couple weeks ago, and I'm loving it. It only has 4 extra keys, but it's nice to have a single button that builds and flashes a device, rather than a multi-key combo. Also runs QMK/Via, which means I can reprogram those buttons on device, rather than having to make the apps correspond to the keyboard.

crazygringo 2y ago

But why? The whole point is that you can access all the "essential" keys with modifiers like Fn. I find it so natural to Page Up/Dn using Fn+Up/Dn that when I'm on a keyboard with dedicated Page Up/Dn keys it just seems like this bizarre waste of space. Plus the keyboard is so big I have to keep moving my hands all over the place! A 75% keyboard keeps everything within distance of the home row, as it should be. Faraway keys are just inefficient and not ergonomic. There's no need for F36 when you can just use Shift+F12 or Ctrl+F12 or Fn+F12 or whatever you want. Also, a compact keyboard keeps your mouse closer which is good for ergonomics as well.

extragood 2y ago
I don't see any missing essentials on this keyboard (even pg up is there), but some of the even smaller form factors actually remove the arrow keys, and using fn for those gets irritating super quickly.

tombert 2y ago

I've never really understood why people pay more for the kind of gimped keyboard. They're sleeker, sure, but even if you almost never use the special keys they're missing, it will still be annoying the .1% of the time you need that key. I guess at that point you just grab another keyboard, but if you have to have a spare full sized keyboard anyway, why not just use that? I use a $30 mechanical keyboard I bought from a six-letter brand on Amazon four years ago and I've been much happier than when I tried one of those "optimized" compressed keyboards.

jwells89 2y ago
> …even if you almost never use the special keys they're missing, it will still be annoying the .1% of the time you need that key. I guess at that point you just grab another keyboard… Unnecessary with layers, e.g. FN + 1 = F1, which covers the 0.1% use case well enough.
- tombert 2y ago
  Fair enough, to each their own. Personally I have always preferred to use a full size keyboard; the Macbook Pro keyboard is good enough but I will almost always plug in a clacky mechanical keyboard if I'm at home.

shlubbert 2y ago

Luckily the keyboard enthusiast community has something for everyone: https://mechboards.co.uk/products/hyper-7-v4 https://mechboards.co.uk/products/hyper-7-v4

drdaeman 2y ago
I'd wish someday HID standard would include a way for an input device to send arbitrary Unicode codepoints (with a few codes reserved for modifiers) rather than scan codes. The design made sense in PC/XT era, but it feels super dated today.

fanf2 2y ago

Something like a Hyper7 https://mechboards.co.uk/products/hyper-7-v4 https://mechboards.co.uk/products/hyper-7-v4 Or a 122 key Model M https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_code=UB40B5A https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Prod...

TacticalCoder 2y ago

> My perfect keyboard would be something like a 150% with standard full layout but then adding in a bunch of programmable macro keys, I want more than F12! I want F1 through F36. Not 36 but I've got one of these IBM Model M clickety clik keyboard with 24 function keys: https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/9i1aef/24_function_keys/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/9i1aef/24_functio... But that said: I switched to a 60% HHKB more than a decade ago and I don't regret it. I prefer to use modifiers and less keys than more keys and longer hands / fingers travel. Maybe you'd like this Wey Tech MK06: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=15102 https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=15102

kodisha 2y ago

Yes, but, not to the right, let it grow to the left! I would like extra keys, but at the same time I hate that my mouse is that far to the right, and all because of the num keys that I NEVER use. That said, my Logitech MX Keys is the perfect keyboard, if they were ever to release TKL (80%) or some variation or even 75% layout - I would pay top buck for that! Anyone here working at Logitech? :)

airstrike 2y ago
+1! I also own the Logitech MX Keys and would buy a TKL right away. I love the low profile keys I do wish the keys were labeled for Mac or Windows only rather than "opt | start", "cmd | alt" but beggars can't be choosers That volume key next to F12 is annoying AF too... It makes my OCD flare up had

SkyMarshal 2y ago

I mostly don't mind them, except for the ones with shortened right-shift key. Those I have to contort my right pinky finger uncomfortably to use Shift, which I use much more frequently than the arrow keys (since I use Vim keybinds for literally everything possible).

kerhackernews 2y ago

The smaller keyboards are very popular for gaming because they are more ergonomic and free up more room on the desk. However, if someone is in the market for a gaming keyboard right now, I would only recommend Wooting as at this point in time there is no HE keyboard with latency has low as Wooting.

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