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> The shift towards liberal values have come with great individual freedom and enormous strides in humane treatment of others, but they've also come with increa

> The shift towards liberal values have come with great individual freedom and enormous strides in humane treatment of others, but they've also come with increasing isolation, the breakdown of families, shrinking and aging populations, and many other negatives While these things have converged in time, I don't see how the shift towards liberal values (i.e. kindness towards people different to oneself) has in any way caused the other societal issues you mention. Just as an example, doesn't homophobia contribute to "the breakdown of families"? I do appreciate your very measured contribution to a thread that is otherwise leading to shallow inflammatory comments.

blackbear_ 2y ago
Liberal values need not be the only cause, increased individual freedom is also a factor. For example, it takes a lot of work and sacrifice to establish and preserve a good and happy relationship and family. Without the external pressure from society, many people are choosing not to bother with this difficulty and rather focus on their own lives and enjoyment.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  You said it quite a bit more succinctly than I did. Thanks
aprilthird2021 2y ago
Sure I can expound on the idea. Thanks for not conflating me personally with these ideas, I just like to talk about them with others to help form my own opinions. I mostly mean that when a society is very tolerant of wildly differing views and values (both conservative religious and secular types), then people congregate to their favored values and leave their families. In a way we create clusters of our own thinking. It's kind of like the forum-ization of our lives. In a world where obedience to a larger set of shared values (even by those who disagree with them) is emphasized and important, you actually end up spending more time with people you don't agree with at the core. Familial bonds are stronger in such a world because familial bonds aren't based at all on shared values, so having an imposed shared value on the family keeps the differences in values from breaking it apart. Hopefully this makes sense and doesn't sound like rambling. I would compare it to the hippie counterculture of the 60s and 70s. It was a far bigger tent of differing people and values than any subculture you can find today. Back when tolerance was less, anyone who was different stuck together and there wasn't room for big disagreements and splintering, etc. (there eventually was and this is what killed that culture). I feel a similar thing is happening in our world. Tolerance of everything means, why spend your time and effort on pesky family members you disagree with at the core? Again these are all unquantifiable and so they run the risk of being unprovable and wrong. But when the numbers can't tell you the story you have to fill it in somehow.

blackbear_ 2y ago

Liberal values need not be the only cause, increased individual freedom is also a factor. For example, it takes a lot of work and sacrifice to establish and preserve a good and happy relationship and family. Without the external pressure from society, many people are choosing not to bother with this difficulty and rather focus on their own lives and enjoyment.

aprilthird2021 2y ago
You said it quite a bit more succinctly than I did. Thanks

aprilthird2021 2y ago

Sure I can expound on the idea. Thanks for not conflating me personally with these ideas, I just like to talk about them with others to help form my own opinions. I mostly mean that when a society is very tolerant of wildly differing views and values (both conservative religious and secular types), then people congregate to their favored values and leave their families. In a way we create clusters of our own thinking. It's kind of like the forum-ization of our lives. In a world where obedience to a larger set of shared values (even by those who disagree with them) is emphasized and important, you actually end up spending more time with people you don't agree with at the core. Familial bonds are stronger in such a world because familial bonds aren't based at all on shared values, so having an imposed shared value on the family keeps the differences in values from breaking it apart. Hopefully this makes sense and doesn't sound like rambling. I would compare it to the hippie counterculture of the 60s and 70s. It was a far bigger tent of differing people and values than any subculture you can find today. Back when tolerance was less, anyone who was different stuck together and there wasn't room for big disagreements and splintering, etc. (there eventually was and this is what killed that culture). I feel a similar thing is happening in our world. Tolerance of everything means, why spend your time and effort on pesky family members you disagree with at the core? Again these are all unquantifiable and so they run the risk of being unprovable and wrong. But when the numbers can't tell you the story you have to fill it in somehow.