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I've had this thought stuck in my head for the past 10 years that comes up a lot, I wonder if anyone has written on it or research it, but it's simple and goes

by neom 3y ago

I've had this thought stuck in my head for the past 10 years that comes up a lot, I wonder if anyone has written on it or research it, but it's simple and goes something like: globalized industrial/economic integration came before strong tight cultural integration. I think that is probably a true enough framing? I sometimes then try to think about what the world would be like if the reverse had happened, but it's quite a lot to think about, so I give up quickly.

gessha 3y ago
How would achieve cultural integration without trade? This reminds me of how much technological progress the British had to make so they can reach India. I also wonder what life on the Americas would’ve looked like if the Europeans didn’t wipe out the natives with deceases, horses and guns.
- soco 3y ago
  The question is: when did those Europeans cease to be Europeans and started to be Americans? Is there some overlap with the wiping out of the natives? Of course the distinction is insignificant when looked at from the natives' side, but there's a difference between European nations sending people to wipe out natives, and European people fleeing their countries to become Americans and en passant also wiping out natives. Or I didn't really understand your point.
  - gessha 2y ago
    To answer your question, I don’t think there’s a clear point where Europeans become Americans when they move and I don’t think it overlaps with repressions of natives. I think the people immigrating to the Americas all had many known and unknown reasons to move. While visiting the Ellis Island of Immigration in NYC, I read some of their records. You can tell from the recorded stories of immigrants. As a European who immigrated to the US in my adult life, I think of it as mixing of dyes. You’re no longer completely European and not as American as the ones born here. There’s beauty and sadness in the process. Also, my point was less about the missing natives and mourning them but about imagining what life would’ve looked like if the two cultures blended in a more peaceful way. This [1] is related to my point about peaceful coexistence, puritans, native Americans, etc. [1] https://www.npr.org/2023/12/07/1198908282/the-lord-of-misrule https://www.npr.org/2023/12/07/1198908282/the-lord-of-misrul...
- neom 3y ago
  Yup, that's the first big question, also I didn't mean to put an absolute on them, it was more the emphasis switched. Then I think the answer becomes: slowly. That's also why it's hard to think about, it's such a different reality, where would we be today technologically, and where would we be socially? Maybe it's a pointless thought experiment, but personally I find it somewhat interesting.

by neom 3y ago

gessha 3y ago

How would achieve cultural integration without trade? This reminds me of how much technological progress the British had to make so they can reach India. I also wonder what life on the Americas would’ve looked like if the Europeans didn’t wipe out the natives with deceases, horses and guns.

soco 3y ago
The question is: when did those Europeans cease to be Europeans and started to be Americans? Is there some overlap with the wiping out of the natives? Of course the distinction is insignificant when looked at from the natives' side, but there's a difference between European nations sending people to wipe out natives, and European people fleeing their countries to become Americans and en passant also wiping out natives. Or I didn't really understand your point.
- gessha 2y ago
  To answer your question, I don’t think there’s a clear point where Europeans become Americans when they move and I don’t think it overlaps with repressions of natives. I think the people immigrating to the Americas all had many known and unknown reasons to move. While visiting the Ellis Island of Immigration in NYC, I read some of their records. You can tell from the recorded stories of immigrants. As a European who immigrated to the US in my adult life, I think of it as mixing of dyes. You’re no longer completely European and not as American as the ones born here. There’s beauty and sadness in the process. Also, my point was less about the missing natives and mourning them but about imagining what life would’ve looked like if the two cultures blended in a more peaceful way. This [1] is related to my point about peaceful coexistence, puritans, native Americans, etc. [1] https://www.npr.org/2023/12/07/1198908282/the-lord-of-misrule https://www.npr.org/2023/12/07/1198908282/the-lord-of-misrul...
neom 3y ago
Yup, that's the first big question, also I didn't mean to put an absolute on them, it was more the emphasis switched. Then I think the answer becomes: slowly. That's also why it's hard to think about, it's such a different reality, where would we be today technologically, and where would we be socially? Maybe it's a pointless thought experiment, but personally I find it somewhat interesting.