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The article touches on why geofencing is hard, and mentions the Russia situation. Both sides in the Ukraine War are using "irregular" Starlink dishes. * Russia

by TMWNN 3y ago

The article touches on why geofencing is hard, and mentions the Russia situation. Both sides in the Ukraine War are using "irregular" Starlink dishes. * Russia is reportedly buying dishes (and the service attached to the dishes) in the Middle East. * Ukraine has its own fleet of dishes (being paid for by the US, after Musk initially provided free service early in the war after a Ukrainian request), but also many individual dishes that were donated, and being paid for, by private individuals outside Ukraine. US law prohibits Russia from using Starlink. The problem is, how to stop Russia from doing so? A simple location-based ban won't work, because the front line is constantly shifting. Whitelisting only Ukraine's own dishes to work within Ukrainian territory might work, but 1) what about dishes that get captured by Russia? 2) As noted, what about all the privately paid-for dishes? Another way to think about this is that this demonstrates just how lifesaving for Ukraine Starlink has become in the past two years. Ukraine could ask Starlink to disable all dishes within its territory; while not perfect, it would likely take out the bulk of Russian dishes. Ukraine has decided that the benefits of Starlink to Ukrainians outweighs Russians also benefiting from it.

7e 3y ago
Allowlisting in Ukraine would absolutely work. The Ukrainian government can track all dishes in Ukraine (public and private), and denylist any which are captured. Starlink can come to them with questions about borderline units. Heck, even banning Middle Eastern Starlinks which are being used outside their registered country would be a good start. This is just Elon being a little shit.
- HumanProtractor 3y ago
  He's running a telecom provider. Nobody has even declared actual war on anybody. During the Cold War we had phone lines to Russia, China, you name it. Of course all communications were heavily monitored, like today. If a war was declared by Congress things would be different of course. But they haven't done that in ages. I think WWII was the last time? Pesky legal issues crop up of course. It's better not to declade war apparently.
- inemesitaffia 3y ago
  There's no Middle Eastern starlinks being used in Ukraine. Zero Where's this magical self created or auto created whitelist in a country where most of the dishes are paid for with foreign payment cards?
lxgr 3y ago
> how to stop Russia from doing so? A simple location-based ban won't work, because the front line is constantly shifting. List the entire conflict zone as blocked by default and require special permission from any terminal in it, as opposed to just allowing random residential $100/month dishes with any valid credit card on file in it? If Starlink cared enough, this would be solved today.
- aaron695 3y ago
  [dead]
- oldpersonintx 3y ago
  [dead]
- arandomusername 3y ago
  And when they implement it, suddenly hundreds Ukrainian starlink terminals stop working at the frontline because they never got around to registering it.
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Of course. You can't have all three: Allow the intended people to have access, don't allow non-intended people to have access, zero friction when transitioning from a permissionless to a permissioned system.
- inemesitaffia 3y ago
  Magical thinking. Where's the list of equipment with permission?
alexpc201 3y ago
I thought Starlink controlled the satellites. I imagine it won't be very difficult to deny connection with the satellites over Russia and Ukraine and that only those with special authorization be able to connect. It's almost obvious that Starlink isn't willing to enforce the ban.
- arandomusername 3y ago
  Did you not read the post? > but also many individual dishes that were donated, and being paid for, by private individuals outside Ukraine. And do you actually think you could get everyone to register their starlink, while fighting? It's a logistical nightmare getting them all registered now.
  - struant 3y ago
    Starlink can see the packet traffic. They ought be able to analyze which dishes are on each side of the conflict. Even if it isn't perfectly accurate, a rough blacklist would help Ukraine tremendously (by hurting Russia). And if Ukraine complains about any that aren't working they can unblock those specifically.
    - arandomusername 3y ago
      What a great idea, it's not like something bad can happen when troops on the frontline are suddenly cut off from communications. Don't let the fact that starlink belongs to Elon influence your critical thinking.
rasz 3y ago
>(being paid for by the US, after Musk initially provided free service early in the war after a Ukrainian request 1 Musk never provided free service for Ukraine. All dishes have subscription. What Musk alluded to was "free upgrade" while demanding Ukrainians start paying for Mobile Priority plans. 2 "As of October 2022 there were 18k Starlink terminals in Ukraine. At the time State Department (USAID) paid for ~2K units, Poland paid for >12K units – over half of all terminals came from one relatively poor EU country. December 2022 number rose to 22K. Apparently as of June 2023 there are >40K terminals in use, with USAID share rising to at least ~5K." US paid for 1/8 of all terminals up to June 2023. I stopped tracking numbers last year. >what about dishes that get captured by Russia? Havent heard a single case of this happening. >As noted, what about all the privately paid-for dishes? should still be registered with AFU
- inemesitaffia 3y ago
  Never provided free service? Not even a single dish? Ever? We have video from the Avdeevka coke plant of captured equipment
  - anelson 3y ago
    I have personally obtained two Starlink dishes in Ukraine. One I preordered more than a year before the war, which was fast tracked by SpaceX shortly after the war started. This was a lifesaver in the early days when power outages took down landline and mobile internet. I paid the $599 for this one. I then ordered a second one later in 2022, thinking it will be years away. It was ready to ship in a month or so and spacex offered to ship it with no additional charge (just the $99 deposit I paid). I accepted this generous offer and am grateful to SpaceX for their help. So technically it’s correct that SpaceX did not provide either of these dishes for free. I also paid the monthly service which is discounted compared to US rates but not free. However it’s also correct to say that SpaceX was generous in making Starlink available and gave at least one dish away for nominal cost in the early days. I’m sure I’m not the only one who benefited from this. Starlinks are used a lot on the front. Of course they get captured by Russian forces sometimes.

by TMWNN 3y ago

7e 3y ago

Allowlisting in Ukraine would absolutely work. The Ukrainian government can track all dishes in Ukraine (public and private), and denylist any which are captured. Starlink can come to them with questions about borderline units. Heck, even banning Middle Eastern Starlinks which are being used outside their registered country would be a good start. This is just Elon being a little shit.

HumanProtractor 3y ago
He's running a telecom provider. Nobody has even declared actual war on anybody. During the Cold War we had phone lines to Russia, China, you name it. Of course all communications were heavily monitored, like today. If a war was declared by Congress things would be different of course. But they haven't done that in ages. I think WWII was the last time? Pesky legal issues crop up of course. It's better not to declade war apparently.
inemesitaffia 3y ago
There's no Middle Eastern starlinks being used in Ukraine. Zero Where's this magical self created or auto created whitelist in a country where most of the dishes are paid for with foreign payment cards?

lxgr 3y ago

> how to stop Russia from doing so? A simple location-based ban won't work, because the front line is constantly shifting. List the entire conflict zone as blocked by default and require special permission from any terminal in it, as opposed to just allowing random residential $100/month dishes with any valid credit card on file in it? If Starlink cared enough, this would be solved today.

aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
oldpersonintx 3y ago
[dead]
arandomusername 3y ago
And when they implement it, suddenly hundreds Ukrainian starlink terminals stop working at the frontline because they never got around to registering it.
- lxgr 3y ago
  Of course. You can't have all three: Allow the intended people to have access, don't allow non-intended people to have access, zero friction when transitioning from a permissionless to a permissioned system.
inemesitaffia 3y ago
Magical thinking. Where's the list of equipment with permission?

alexpc201 3y ago

I thought Starlink controlled the satellites. I imagine it won't be very difficult to deny connection with the satellites over Russia and Ukraine and that only those with special authorization be able to connect. It's almost obvious that Starlink isn't willing to enforce the ban.

arandomusername 3y ago
Did you not read the post? > but also many individual dishes that were donated, and being paid for, by private individuals outside Ukraine. And do you actually think you could get everyone to register their starlink, while fighting? It's a logistical nightmare getting them all registered now.
- struant 3y ago
  Starlink can see the packet traffic. They ought be able to analyze which dishes are on each side of the conflict. Even if it isn't perfectly accurate, a rough blacklist would help Ukraine tremendously (by hurting Russia). And if Ukraine complains about any that aren't working they can unblock those specifically.
  - arandomusername 3y ago
    What a great idea, it's not like something bad can happen when troops on the frontline are suddenly cut off from communications. Don't let the fact that starlink belongs to Elon influence your critical thinking.

rasz 3y ago

>(being paid for by the US, after Musk initially provided free service early in the war after a Ukrainian request 1 Musk never provided free service for Ukraine. All dishes have subscription. What Musk alluded to was "free upgrade" while demanding Ukrainians start paying for Mobile Priority plans. 2 "As of October 2022 there were 18k Starlink terminals in Ukraine. At the time State Department (USAID) paid for ~2K units, Poland paid for >12K units – over half of all terminals came from one relatively poor EU country. December 2022 number rose to 22K. Apparently as of June 2023 there are >40K terminals in use, with USAID share rising to at least ~5K." US paid for 1/8 of all terminals up to June 2023. I stopped tracking numbers last year. >what about dishes that get captured by Russia? Havent heard a single case of this happening. >As noted, what about all the privately paid-for dishes? should still be registered with AFU

inemesitaffia 3y ago
Never provided free service? Not even a single dish? Ever? We have video from the Avdeevka coke plant of captured equipment
- anelson 3y ago
  I have personally obtained two Starlink dishes in Ukraine. One I preordered more than a year before the war, which was fast tracked by SpaceX shortly after the war started. This was a lifesaver in the early days when power outages took down landline and mobile internet. I paid the $599 for this one. I then ordered a second one later in 2022, thinking it will be years away. It was ready to ship in a month or so and spacex offered to ship it with no additional charge (just the $99 deposit I paid). I accepted this generous offer and am grateful to SpaceX for their help. So technically it’s correct that SpaceX did not provide either of these dishes for free. I also paid the monthly service which is discounted compared to US rates but not free. However it’s also correct to say that SpaceX was generous in making Starlink available and gave at least one dish away for nominal cost in the early days. I’m sure I’m not the only one who benefited from this. Starlinks are used a lot on the front. Of course they get captured by Russian forces sometimes.