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Those "freedom indices" come from countries that are all located in the Western sphere of influence, it's like relying on the opinion of an Arsenal supporter wh

Those "freedom indices" come from countries that are all located in the Western sphere of influence, it's like relying on the opinion of an Arsenal supporter when talking about Tottenham (and vice-versa).

alephnerd 3y ago
I can access Xinhua without using a VPN in the US, and cannot be prosecuted for using a VPN. I cannot access BBC in China without using a VPN, and can potentially be prosecuted for either action. I can say Biden/Trump are horrible and need to rot in jail, and my comment with not be deleted by a censor. If I say "Xi dada needs to step down and Li Keiqiang should have been Premier instead, and HK was never an integral part of China" it will get deleted on Sina, and if they really had it out for me prosecute me under NSL. I can Google for Jan 6th photos without censorship. I cannot Baidu search photos of the Tiannamen square protests and subsequent massacre. The freedom house index does have issues, but China is absolutely unfree. Authoritarian states aren't completely unfree (it's organizationally impossible), but China is definetly fairly unfree compared to other authoritarian states like Russia or even Vietnam (though Vietnam is trending towards a more authoritarian future now that Tô Lâm is almost assured to be the next leader)
- paganel 3y ago
  Students in the US are now getting their bodies hurt (not to mention the legal and career-ending consequences) by hundreds to thousands of policemen for the simple crime of protesting a genocide happening half-way around the globe, let's cut the charade, it doesn't help anyone.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Yea, and what does Chinese police do to protesters? Be it the White Paper protests in Shanghai and Beijing in 2022 [0], the wave of ethnic Mongol protests in 2020-21 [1], etc. Police will inevitably crack down on protests everywhere, yet protests continue to happen on a daily basis in the US with minimal long term ramifications. Also, none of what you pointed out actually refutes my points above about internet censorship, and as such clearly shows an attempt at whataboutism. P.S. Both HRW [2] and Amnesty [3] have unequivocally voiced their support for the right to protest in the US, and as such if you try to say "oh human rights organizations are a tool of the west" it's complete bullshit. [0] - https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/26/china-free-white-paper-protesters https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/26/china-free-white-paper-p... [1] - https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/3086/2020/en/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/3086/2020/en/ [2] - https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/04/26/us-universities-should-respect-right-protest https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/04/26/us-universities-should-r... [3] - https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-releases/amnesty-international-urges-university-administrations-to-respect-and-protect-students-rights-to-protest/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-releases/amnesty-internatio...
  - TulliusCicero 3y ago
    No they're not. They're being removed by police for setting up encampments on private property. You can't just start setting up tents wherever you want on private land and taking over the area. It might still be a bad idea to remove them, but if they were just doing standard protests in public areas, it'd be much less of an issue.
    - paganel 3y ago
      So you're saying the Chinese authorities were right in evacuating the Tiananmen Square, after all you cannot forcefully block public places without the proper authorization either. Like I said, let's cut the charade and look at the facts.
      - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
        Absolute freedom exists nowhere. Absolute unfreedom also exists nowhere. Still, some places are more free than others. alephnerd made a number of comparisons of the US to China; you have refuted none of them. You merely complain that the US is not absolutely free of consequences for your actions. Well, that's true, but if that's what you're looking for, try an uninhabited island (and you may not even find it there).
      - TulliusCicero 3y ago
        lol, "evacuating". Come the fuck on. Merely arresting people and forcing them out of the square would've meant it would be a blip in history. The Tiananmen Square massacre is famous because it was a massacre. Even official figures said that hundreds of people died.
TulliusCicero 3y ago
> Freedom indices all come from free countries! Wow, what a shocker. Next you're gonna tell me that the democracy indices people use come only from democracies.
- paganel 3y ago
  You're equating "freedom" with "democracy", which as a far from established fact.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

alephnerd 3y ago

I can access Xinhua without using a VPN in the US, and cannot be prosecuted for using a VPN. I cannot access BBC in China without using a VPN, and can potentially be prosecuted for either action. I can say Biden/Trump are horrible and need to rot in jail, and my comment with not be deleted by a censor. If I say "Xi dada needs to step down and Li Keiqiang should have been Premier instead, and HK was never an integral part of China" it will get deleted on Sina, and if they really had it out for me prosecute me under NSL. I can Google for Jan 6th photos without censorship. I cannot Baidu search photos of the Tiannamen square protests and subsequent massacre. The freedom house index does have issues, but China is absolutely unfree. Authoritarian states aren't completely unfree (it's organizationally impossible), but China is definetly fairly unfree compared to other authoritarian states like Russia or even Vietnam (though Vietnam is trending towards a more authoritarian future now that Tô Lâm is almost assured to be the next leader)

paganel 3y ago
Students in the US are now getting their bodies hurt (not to mention the legal and career-ending consequences) by hundreds to thousands of policemen for the simple crime of protesting a genocide happening half-way around the globe, let's cut the charade, it doesn't help anyone.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Yea, and what does Chinese police do to protesters? Be it the White Paper protests in Shanghai and Beijing in 2022 [0], the wave of ethnic Mongol protests in 2020-21 [1], etc. Police will inevitably crack down on protests everywhere, yet protests continue to happen on a daily basis in the US with minimal long term ramifications. Also, none of what you pointed out actually refutes my points above about internet censorship, and as such clearly shows an attempt at whataboutism. P.S. Both HRW [2] and Amnesty [3] have unequivocally voiced their support for the right to protest in the US, and as such if you try to say "oh human rights organizations are a tool of the west" it's complete bullshit. [0] - https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/26/china-free-white-paper-protesters https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/26/china-free-white-paper-p... [1] - https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/3086/2020/en/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/3086/2020/en/ [2] - https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/04/26/us-universities-should-respect-right-protest https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/04/26/us-universities-should-r... [3] - https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-releases/amnesty-international-urges-university-administrations-to-respect-and-protect-students-rights-to-protest/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-releases/amnesty-internatio...
- TulliusCicero 3y ago
  No they're not. They're being removed by police for setting up encampments on private property. You can't just start setting up tents wherever you want on private land and taking over the area. It might still be a bad idea to remove them, but if they were just doing standard protests in public areas, it'd be much less of an issue.
  - paganel 3y ago
    So you're saying the Chinese authorities were right in evacuating the Tiananmen Square, after all you cannot forcefully block public places without the proper authorization either. Like I said, let's cut the charade and look at the facts.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      Absolute freedom exists nowhere. Absolute unfreedom also exists nowhere. Still, some places are more free than others. alephnerd made a number of comparisons of the US to China; you have refuted none of them. You merely complain that the US is not absolutely free of consequences for your actions. Well, that's true, but if that's what you're looking for, try an uninhabited island (and you may not even find it there).
    - TulliusCicero 3y ago
      lol, "evacuating". Come the fuck on. Merely arresting people and forcing them out of the square would've meant it would be a blip in history. The Tiananmen Square massacre is famous because it was a massacre. Even official figures said that hundreds of people died.

TulliusCicero 3y ago

> Freedom indices all come from free countries! Wow, what a shocker. Next you're gonna tell me that the democracy indices people use come only from democracies.

paganel 3y ago
You're equating "freedom" with "democracy", which as a far from established fact.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]