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So you are saying that it might have learn by trial and error to use appropriate social signs directed to the appropriate social settings…? And that differs fr

So you are saying that it might have learn by trial and error to use appropriate social signs directed to the appropriate social settings…? And that differs from us how exactly ?

swores 2y ago
Obviously it would be interesting if that's what happened, but no, what they were saying is that it could well be that it had only been exposed to visitors doing nice gestures and was repeating them back with no understanding of nice vs nasty. Not that the anecdote proves their guess is more right than yours, but afaik there is more evidence of animals mirroring unthinkingly than understanding.
- smusamashah 2y ago
  Mirroring and copying unthinkingly is how we humans learn. If what we mirrored gives us the desired results we keep doing it. Questioning and understanding those actions comes lot later. I have learned this from my toddler son who picked up some 2 3 word sentences from the cartoons that he watches. He ofcourse has no clue what those words mean, but he does know when to use them and what response he gets from them. English isn't the language we speak at home but he picked up "wake up" when I am sleeping and try to wake me up, "careful" when doing something where he or one of us could fall. All by seeing and hearing things said repeatedly on similar actions in cartoons.
  - swores 2y ago
    Sure, we learn by copying things. But there isn't, that I'm aware of, any evidence that an orangutan has done the learning part rather than just the copying part. It wouldn't shock me if we did learn they can learn that way, but it also wouldn't shock me if it was just blindly copying human gestures without learning anything from what happens when they do.
    - ASalazarMX 2y ago
      I still think that said orangutan didn't have to blow a kiss and wave goodbye, after all it already had what it wanted: seeing a baby. It could as well just turn around and leave. Orangutans likely don't blow kisses in the wild, so it not only imitated it, but also used it in an appropriate manner and context, without an immediate need to satisfy. Chimps are roughly as smart as a 5 year-old human, and toddlers sure blow kisses and wave goodbye with full intention. Great apes are more human-like than most people think: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/science/17chimp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/science/17chimp.html
mc32 2y ago
It’s akin to cargo culting, or rain dancing, etc. A dog asking for beggin strips…
- saurik 2y ago
  The concept of cargo culting came from a situation with humans; while a dog might also do it, it doesn't make sense to cite it as a reason why a behavior is somehow inhuman.

So you are saying that it might have learn by trial and error to use appropriate social signs directed to the appropriate social settings…? And that differs from us how exactly ?

swores 2y ago

Obviously it would be interesting if that's what happened, but no, what they were saying is that it could well be that it had only been exposed to visitors doing nice gestures and was repeating them back with no understanding of nice vs nasty. Not that the anecdote proves their guess is more right than yours, but afaik there is more evidence of animals mirroring unthinkingly than understanding.

smusamashah 2y ago
Mirroring and copying unthinkingly is how we humans learn. If what we mirrored gives us the desired results we keep doing it. Questioning and understanding those actions comes lot later. I have learned this from my toddler son who picked up some 2 3 word sentences from the cartoons that he watches. He ofcourse has no clue what those words mean, but he does know when to use them and what response he gets from them. English isn't the language we speak at home but he picked up "wake up" when I am sleeping and try to wake me up, "careful" when doing something where he or one of us could fall. All by seeing and hearing things said repeatedly on similar actions in cartoons.
- swores 2y ago
  Sure, we learn by copying things. But there isn't, that I'm aware of, any evidence that an orangutan has done the learning part rather than just the copying part. It wouldn't shock me if we did learn they can learn that way, but it also wouldn't shock me if it was just blindly copying human gestures without learning anything from what happens when they do.
  - ASalazarMX 2y ago
    I still think that said orangutan didn't have to blow a kiss and wave goodbye, after all it already had what it wanted: seeing a baby. It could as well just turn around and leave. Orangutans likely don't blow kisses in the wild, so it not only imitated it, but also used it in an appropriate manner and context, without an immediate need to satisfy. Chimps are roughly as smart as a 5 year-old human, and toddlers sure blow kisses and wave goodbye with full intention. Great apes are more human-like than most people think: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/science/17chimp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/science/17chimp.html

mc32 2y ago

It’s akin to cargo culting, or rain dancing, etc. A dog asking for beggin strips…

saurik 2y ago
The concept of cargo culting came from a situation with humans; while a dog might also do it, it doesn't make sense to cite it as a reason why a behavior is somehow inhuman.