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Ironic, that socialist/communist regimes always win power on the idea of giving control and ownership of assets back to "the people" The reality, of course, is

by cbeach 2y ago

Ironic, that socialist/communist regimes always win power on the idea of giving control and ownership of assets back to "the people" The reality, of course, is that the people end up giving control and ownership to a one-party state. The four remaining Marxist-Leninist states are China, Cuba, Laos and Vietnam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states#Marxist%E2%80%93Leninist_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states#Marxi...) In 2024, their Freedom Indices (out of 100) are: China: 9 Cuba: 12 Laos: 13 Vietnam: 19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices

alephnerd 2y ago
China isn't Marxist-Leninist - the CCP split from Marxist thinking and Comintern early in the PRC's history. It's become it's own thing because anything "communist" is just lip service at this point. Public veneration of past Chinese empires and dynasties is way more common than some idealized view of a proletariat state. Same with Vietnam (basically a crony capitalist country) and Laos (basically a buffer between Thailand, VN, and China where all three meddle)
- cbeach 2y ago
  You might want to edit Wikipedia's list of Marxist-Leninist states, in that case? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states#Marxist%E2%80%93Leninist_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states#Marxi... Also the page on China, which states the government is a "Unitary Marxist–Leninist one-party socialist state" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd be interested to see how that edit would be received by other editors of the page.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > Wikipedia's list It's basing "Marxist-Leninist" on national constitutions, which themselves are de facto useless when the Politburos in China, Vietnam, and Laos make drastic policy changes every decade (eg. 10 years ago it was expected for Chinese Premiers to step down after a 10 year term). Also, that list doesn't seem to actually link sources to assertions. The CCP's charter calls itself "Marxist-Leninist" but every single "thought"/ideology pushed by the CCP's leadership when a new Premier arises is de facto diametric to Marxism-Leninism, and it has always been this case since Mao. I recommend reading "The Chinese Reassessment of Socialism, 1976–1992" by Yan Sun , "A Nation-state by Construction: Dynamics of Modern Chinese Nationalism" by Suisheng Zhao, and "China: Development and Governance" by Yongian Zheng and Gunwu Wang if you want to actually understand the ideological underpinnings of Chinese governance. I have Chinese language sources as well I'd recommend but that's a whole other issue. > I'd be interested to see how that edit would be received by other editors of the page Just like they taught all of us from elementary school to college - Wikipedia IS NOT a reliable source. Wikipedia should always be used to spark conversations, but it is up to you to actually use Primary and Secondary sources to validate whether content on Wikipedia is valid or not. Wikipedia as an editorial organization has a lot of issues, internal rivalries, and astroturfing (especially w/ regards to highly controversial topics such as Asian politics). As such, it's best to use Primary and credible Secondary sources.
paganel 2y ago
Those "freedom indices" come from countries that are all located in the Western sphere of influence, it's like relying on the opinion of an Arsenal supporter when talking about Tottenham (and vice-versa).
- alephnerd 2y ago
  I can access Xinhua without using a VPN in the US, and cannot be prosecuted for using a VPN. I cannot access BBC in China without using a VPN, and can potentially be prosecuted for either action. I can say Biden/Trump are horrible and need to rot in jail, and my comment with not be deleted by a censor. If I say "Xi dada needs to step down and Li Keiqiang should have been Premier instead, and HK was never an integral part of China" it will get deleted on Sina, and if they really had it out for me prosecute me under NSL. I can Google for Jan 6th photos without censorship. I cannot Baidu search photos of the Tiannamen square protests and subsequent massacre. The freedom house index does have issues, but China is absolutely unfree. Authoritarian states aren't completely unfree (it's organizationally impossible), but China is definetly fairly unfree compared to other authoritarian states like Russia or even Vietnam (though Vietnam is trending towards a more authoritarian future now that Tô Lâm is almost assured to be the next leader)
  - paganel 2y ago
    Students in the US are now getting their bodies hurt (not to mention the legal and career-ending consequences) by hundreds to thousands of policemen for the simple crime of protesting a genocide happening half-way around the globe, let's cut the charade, it doesn't help anyone.
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      Yea, and what does Chinese police do to protesters? Be it the White Paper protests in Shanghai and Beijing in 2022 [0], the wave of ethnic Mongol protests in 2020-21 [1], etc. Police will inevitably crack down on protests everywhere, yet protests continue to happen on a daily basis in the US with minimal long term ramifications. Also, none of what you pointed out actually refutes my points above about internet censorship, and as such clearly shows an attempt at whataboutism. P.S. Both HRW [2] and Amnesty [3] have unequivocally voiced their support for the right to protest in the US, and as such if you try to say "oh human rights organizations are a tool of the west" it's complete bullshit. [0] - https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/26/china-free-white-paper-protesters https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/26/china-free-white-paper-p... [1] - https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/3086/2020/en/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/3086/2020/en/ [2] - https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/04/26/us-universities-should-respect-right-protest https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/04/26/us-universities-should-r... [3] - https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-releases/amnesty-international-urges-university-administrations-to-respect-and-protect-students-rights-to-protest/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-releases/amnesty-internatio...
thiagoharry 2y ago
Impressive, countries that are not capitalist, or not entirely capitalist, do not perform well on capitalist metrics, like "market freedom", or "economic freedom". Who could have guessed...?
- cbeach 2y ago
  If you have no opportunity to own the fruits of your labour, you are not free. You are a slave. Economic freedom is freedom.
  - thiagoharry 2y ago
    Workers do not own the fruits of their labor, in capitalism the fruits go to who owns the means of production.
    - cbeach 2y ago
      In capitalism, any worker is able to own the means of production. Anyone can start their own business or purchase a share of someone else's business if they want to benefit from its 'fruits' In socialism and communism, only the state can own the means of production.
      - thiagoharry 2y ago
        Which is plainful wrong. Why the supermarket employers work as employers if they could own their own supermarket? Most people cannot own the relevant means of production, otherwise salaried work would be impossible and capitalism would not exist. Your comment about socialism is also plainful wrong. In Yuguslavia, cooperatives did not owned the means of production?
        cbeach 2y ago
        Under capitalism, if you work for a supermarket and want to own some of company and share some of the profit, you buy some of the stock (there are often generous deals to encourage this). Alternatively, if you want to start your own business selling goods, you can - at any scale, whether it's a market stall or a supermarket - usually you'd work your way up from small to big, provided you have the work ethic to do so. You mentioned cooperatives. This is tangential to the discussion as cooperatives are neither socialist nor capitalist, per se. They can freely exist in capitalist societies, and also in some socialist societies (although they are often tightly controlled by the state, and may be seized by the state).

by cbeach 2y ago

alephnerd 2y ago

China isn't Marxist-Leninist - the CCP split from Marxist thinking and Comintern early in the PRC's history. It's become it's own thing because anything "communist" is just lip service at this point. Public veneration of past Chinese empires and dynasties is way more common than some idealized view of a proletariat state. Same with Vietnam (basically a crony capitalist country) and Laos (basically a buffer between Thailand, VN, and China where all three meddle)

cbeach 2y ago
You might want to edit Wikipedia's list of Marxist-Leninist states, in that case? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states#Marxist%E2%80%93Leninist_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states#Marxi... Also the page on China, which states the government is a "Unitary Marxist–Leninist one-party socialist state" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd be interested to see how that edit would be received by other editors of the page.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > Wikipedia's list It's basing "Marxist-Leninist" on national constitutions, which themselves are de facto useless when the Politburos in China, Vietnam, and Laos make drastic policy changes every decade (eg. 10 years ago it was expected for Chinese Premiers to step down after a 10 year term). Also, that list doesn't seem to actually link sources to assertions. The CCP's charter calls itself "Marxist-Leninist" but every single "thought"/ideology pushed by the CCP's leadership when a new Premier arises is de facto diametric to Marxism-Leninism, and it has always been this case since Mao. I recommend reading "The Chinese Reassessment of Socialism, 1976–1992" by Yan Sun , "A Nation-state by Construction: Dynamics of Modern Chinese Nationalism" by Suisheng Zhao, and "China: Development and Governance" by Yongian Zheng and Gunwu Wang if you want to actually understand the ideological underpinnings of Chinese governance. I have Chinese language sources as well I'd recommend but that's a whole other issue. > I'd be interested to see how that edit would be received by other editors of the page Just like they taught all of us from elementary school to college - Wikipedia IS NOT a reliable source. Wikipedia should always be used to spark conversations, but it is up to you to actually use Primary and Secondary sources to validate whether content on Wikipedia is valid or not. Wikipedia as an editorial organization has a lot of issues, internal rivalries, and astroturfing (especially w/ regards to highly controversial topics such as Asian politics). As such, it's best to use Primary and credible Secondary sources.

paganel 2y ago

Those "freedom indices" come from countries that are all located in the Western sphere of influence, it's like relying on the opinion of an Arsenal supporter when talking about Tottenham (and vice-versa).

alephnerd 2y ago
I can access Xinhua without using a VPN in the US, and cannot be prosecuted for using a VPN. I cannot access BBC in China without using a VPN, and can potentially be prosecuted for either action. I can say Biden/Trump are horrible and need to rot in jail, and my comment with not be deleted by a censor. If I say "Xi dada needs to step down and Li Keiqiang should have been Premier instead, and HK was never an integral part of China" it will get deleted on Sina, and if they really had it out for me prosecute me under NSL. I can Google for Jan 6th photos without censorship. I cannot Baidu search photos of the Tiannamen square protests and subsequent massacre. The freedom house index does have issues, but China is absolutely unfree. Authoritarian states aren't completely unfree (it's organizationally impossible), but China is definetly fairly unfree compared to other authoritarian states like Russia or even Vietnam (though Vietnam is trending towards a more authoritarian future now that Tô Lâm is almost assured to be the next leader)
- paganel 2y ago
  Students in the US are now getting their bodies hurt (not to mention the legal and career-ending consequences) by hundreds to thousands of policemen for the simple crime of protesting a genocide happening half-way around the globe, let's cut the charade, it doesn't help anyone.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Yea, and what does Chinese police do to protesters? Be it the White Paper protests in Shanghai and Beijing in 2022 [0], the wave of ethnic Mongol protests in 2020-21 [1], etc. Police will inevitably crack down on protests everywhere, yet protests continue to happen on a daily basis in the US with minimal long term ramifications. Also, none of what you pointed out actually refutes my points above about internet censorship, and as such clearly shows an attempt at whataboutism. P.S. Both HRW [2] and Amnesty [3] have unequivocally voiced their support for the right to protest in the US, and as such if you try to say "oh human rights organizations are a tool of the west" it's complete bullshit. [0] - https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/26/china-free-white-paper-protesters https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/26/china-free-white-paper-p... [1] - https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/3086/2020/en/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/3086/2020/en/ [2] - https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/04/26/us-universities-should-respect-right-protest https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/04/26/us-universities-should-r... [3] - https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-releases/amnesty-international-urges-university-administrations-to-respect-and-protect-students-rights-to-protest/ https://www.amnestyusa.org/press-releases/amnesty-internatio...

thiagoharry 2y ago

Impressive, countries that are not capitalist, or not entirely capitalist, do not perform well on capitalist metrics, like "market freedom", or "economic freedom". Who could have guessed...?

cbeach 2y ago
If you have no opportunity to own the fruits of your labour, you are not free. You are a slave. Economic freedom is freedom.
- thiagoharry 2y ago
  Workers do not own the fruits of their labor, in capitalism the fruits go to who owns the means of production.
  - cbeach 2y ago
    In capitalism, any worker is able to own the means of production. Anyone can start their own business or purchase a share of someone else's business if they want to benefit from its 'fruits' In socialism and communism, only the state can own the means of production.
    - thiagoharry 2y ago
      Which is plainful wrong. Why the supermarket employers work as employers if they could own their own supermarket? Most people cannot own the relevant means of production, otherwise salaried work would be impossible and capitalism would not exist. Your comment about socialism is also plainful wrong. In Yuguslavia, cooperatives did not owned the means of production?
      - cbeach 2y ago
        Under capitalism, if you work for a supermarket and want to own some of company and share some of the profit, you buy some of the stock (there are often generous deals to encourage this). Alternatively, if you want to start your own business selling goods, you can - at any scale, whether it's a market stall or a supermarket - usually you'd work your way up from small to big, provided you have the work ethic to do so. You mentioned cooperatives. This is tangential to the discussion as cooperatives are neither socialist nor capitalist, per se. They can freely exist in capitalist societies, and also in some socialist societies (although they are often tightly controlled by the state, and may be seized by the state).