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Starlink geofence appears to have some gaping holes
- struant 2y agoWhy do they give a damn if people are subscribing in the US and using their product in Africa? If anything they should be using their position to obliterate the whole idea of region-locking anything.
- wkat4242 2y agoStarlink relies on local downlinks (the laser link traffic is of course limited) so they probably just don't have the capacity in those regions. Or lack the permission to offer the service. Many countries forbid most satellite equipment, even big ones like India.
- loceng 2y agoA single Starlink could service bandwidth to a whole lot of people through local wired connections - which is a serious disruption to the existing industrial complex-government power structure; is what comes to my mind first.
- Angostura 2y ago> existing industrial complex-government power structure Or local businesses as they are sometimes known
- loceng 2y agoUntil there's consolidation and it's no longer local but national or multi-national, or global companies like Blackrock et al who own controlling shares and board member positions to steer the companies how they choose. But there is a good point and pattern to notice here, that further consolidation into a global companies providing internet access put resources and power into even fewer hands, but now that power is no longer being held by potentially authoritarian politicians and their Gestapo. The solution for that means requiring multiple satellite internet providers, and people paying attention always to prevent a critical mass or majority of them from capture by bad actors - which we know happened with MSM consolidation, as well as more recently with social media platforms all illegally colluding with the US government - exposed due to Elon buying Twitter-X and releasing the Twitter Files. But what point were you trying to make? That Starlink is bad for local economies because people are paying a non-local company?
- Angostura 2y ago> But what point were you trying to make? That Starlink is bad for local economies because people are paying a non-local company? It's certainly a good way to suppress local infrastructure development, yes
- bradley13 2y ago"Or lack the permission to offer the service." Musk once said that, in that case, the country's leaders could "shake their fists impotently at the sky". Which is imho the right answer.
- cubefox 2y agoThis would likely mean Starlink dishes imported from the US would get confiscated at customs.
- yestes33 2y ago[flagged]
- Onavo 2y agoHis other businesses will most likely get sanctioned, employees associated with them will conveniently get searched and detained on trumped up charges whenever they visit said countries. It's very difficult because Musk's businesses are hardware businesses, and with hardware there is a supply chain involved. It's not difficult for a state level entity to create problems for his businesses.
- kjksf 2y agoThat was in the context of hostile nations, like Russia or Iran or Cuba, where Starlink has no chance of being allowed. Everywhere else it makes much more sense to get permission to operate (vs. trying some pirate operation where Starlink is treated like a contraband that needs to be illegally imported into the country, the payments must happen stealthily, you get no support etc.).
- lxgr 2y agoUntil one of them shoots down one of his satellites and ruins LEO for everybody. Space as a shared resource (as opposed to e.g. airspace) only works if countries (and corporations) respect each others sovereignty.
- CamperBob2 2y agoHow is Musk responsible for what amounts to a terroristic atrocity committed by an evil regime?
- ranger_danger 2y ago> Many countries forbid most satellite equipment, even big ones like India. Do you have a source for this?
- wkat4242 2y agoHere for example: https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/64974/why-are-satellite-phones-strictly-banned-in-india https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/64974/why-are-sat... Inmarsat is the only exception for phones.
- tiahura 2y agoThere are simple well documented answers to your question in the article you didn’t read and elsewhere.
- struant 2y agoYou must have read a different article, because "starlink doesn't like it" is the only justification or explanation the article offers for their stance. And that is neither a valid justification nor an explanation.
- michaelt 2y agoOther people have mentioned the legal/sanctions reasons. But also, from a business point of view, maximum profit might mean offering a $100 a month service for residential users, a $1000 a month service for billionaires' yachts, a $5000 a month service for private jets, and a $100,000 a month service for defence industry applications. Charging more for use away from home, based on GPS data, could be very profitable. Especially as you need GPS tracking to beam the signals to the right place anyway.
- jvanderbot 2y agoI am fairly certain the backbone customer for starlink is or will be militaries, not necessarily private jets.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- grecy 2y ago> Why do they give a damn if people are subscribing in the US and using their product in Africa? A government gets to decide what their citizens can have. Think about it the other way around. Let's say there is a brand new vehicle for sale in China with no airbags, no abs, no emissions controls of any kind, etc. People in the US are absolutely NOT allowed to purchase that because the government of the US have decided it goes against the public interest (safety, pollution, etc.). Just because one country thinks people should be able to conceal carry handguns, that doesn't mean other countries have to allow it.
- struant 2y agoThen it is up to the local government to confiscate their starlink hardware. There is no reason for starlink to respect every single legal jurisdiction's rules. They only need to deal with wherever they connect to ISPs.
- grecy 2y agoYou and I both know that is not how laws are enforced by any country anywhere in the world.
- struant 2y agoWhat is an African country going to do about enforcing anything to do with starlink other than confiscate hardware within their borders? Whine to the UN that someone is competing with their local telecom?
- inemesitaffia 2y agoIran vs Norway in re starlink at the ITU
- grecy 2y agoWhy do you belittle African countries like that? Do Africans deserve less enforcement of things their government has not approved than people in other parts of the world? Would you be OK if some country started making high-current electrical devices that were not approved and then just forcefully sold them in your country, even though regulations prohibited it?
- TMWNN 2y agoThe article touches on why geofencing is hard, and mentions the Russia situation. Both sides in the Ukraine War are using "irregular" Starlink dishes. * Russia is reportedly buying dishes (and the service attached to the dishes) in the Middle East. * Ukraine has its own fleet of dishes (being paid for by the US, after Musk initially provided free service early in the war after a Ukrainian request), but also many individual dishes that were donated, and being paid for, by private individuals outside Ukraine. US law prohibits Russia from using Starlink. The problem is, how to stop Russia from doing so? A simple location-based ban won't work, because the front line is constantly shifting. Whitelisting only Ukraine's own dishes to work within Ukrainian territory might work, but 1) what about dishes that get captured by Russia? 2) As noted, what about all the privately paid-for dishes? Another way to think about this is that this demonstrates just how lifesaving for Ukraine Starlink has become in the past two years. Ukraine could ask Starlink to disable all dishes within its territory; while not perfect, it would likely take out the bulk of Russian dishes. Ukraine has decided that the benefits of Starlink to Ukrainians outweighs Russians also benefiting from it.
- 7e 2y agoAllowlisting in Ukraine would absolutely work. The Ukrainian government can track all dishes in Ukraine (public and private), and denylist any which are captured. Starlink can come to them with questions about borderline units. Heck, even banning Middle Eastern Starlinks which are being used outside their registered country would be a good start. This is just Elon being a little shit.
- HumanProtractor 2y agoHe's running a telecom provider. Nobody has even declared actual war on anybody. During the Cold War we had phone lines to Russia, China, you name it. Of course all communications were heavily monitored, like today. If a war was declared by Congress things would be different of course. But they haven't done that in ages. I think WWII was the last time? Pesky legal issues crop up of course. It's better not to declade war apparently.
- inemesitaffia 2y ago
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- xyst 2y agoI understand GPS positioning is not very accurate especially when talking within a few feet or couple of meters on a moving target. I have personally had this issue when trying to park a scooter in a designated “parking zone” on the app. Physically, I am in the zone but the GPS marker shows I am slightly outside the zone. But what would be the technical limitation of blacklisting entire countries? At that scale, precision wouldn’t really matter. Anybody here familiar with the problems care to chime in? Wonder if this is more of a leadership issue…
- inemesitaffia 2y agoWould be difficult in border areas. It's enough they don't want to
- jcims 2y agoThis article is like going to the principals office and telling them that Barb the lunch lady dropped an extra tater tot on your tray and didn’t remove it. Geofencing is a dark pattern. It’s obviously possible, it just adds cost and complexity and controls that have zero value to the end user.
- fritzo 2y agoPlot twist: you are a child soldier who begins a food fight with the surplus tot. The draconian principal accuses the lunch staff, all of whom are forced to work unpaid overtime because Elon, I mean Barb, broke trade sanctions
- alt227 2y agoI just dont see why this is so hard. Every terminal needs access to the sky for it to communicate to the satelites. Therefore it has access to GPS satellites too. SpaceX satellites shouldnt allow a credential handshake without an encrypted GPS position which it checks against its geofencing database. What am I missing?
- cute_boi 2y agogps can be spoofed? Chips can be reprogrammed? So, isn't it futile?
- alt227 2y agoBut (theoretically) the encryption of the handshake cant. As long as the hardware is designed correctly you can spoof as much GPS as you want, but you cant encrypt it so that SpaceX servers see it as valid.
- TheLoafOfBread 2y agoGPS sure can be spoofed, but then aren't you in a wrong cell and signal from satellite won't get to you, because it is pointing it's antenna on spoofed location?
- mapt 2y agoThe satellite link is comprised of bidirectional phased arrays. The satellite digitally points at an area of the ground to get reception just as the ground antenna digitally points at an area of sky. SpaceX knows exactly where its clients are, give or take ten kilometers, because that's how big its cell size is. No further telemetry is required. SpaceX is just reticent to comply with whatever authorities are leaning on it.
- inemesitaffia 2y agoThey don't want to. And there's another side that's not in the media. People who need access for whatever needs
- pgt 2y agoContext from a South African: the ruling ANC regime has codified BEE (Black Economic Empowerment) laws[^1] that require businesses to gift 30% equity to "local historically disadvantaged" people for it to conduct business with the state. ICASA (Independent Communications Authority of South Africa) controls telecommunication licences and is an instrument of the state. Elon Musk, who is South African, has refused to pay the 30% BEE-tax, which is why Starlink is not enabled in Elon's home country. Most Southern African countries have Starlink, but not Botswana and South Africa. Southern African countries with Starlink: Nigeria, Kenya, Mozambique, Rwanda, Malawi, Zambia and Benin. Namibia and Lesotho. [^1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Economic_Empowerment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Economic_Empowerment
- ThinkBeat 2y agoI speculate that NSA has a series of orgasms everytime they think of Starlink. Direct access to all the data and locatinos millions of users worldwide, and mostl likekly easy to penetrate connected machines as well. There is no way in hell the NSA isnt the man in the middle of the entire consetellation. If we expand on the speculation, having hostiles use Starlink might be hihgly adventagous. Russia using it would be far more valuable than them using some domestic system.