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Obviously I do not see any way for Russia to enter EU as a member state. Like Norway, as you said, it could only be integrated while being outside of the bloc.

Obviously I do not see any way for Russia to enter EU as a member state. Like Norway, as you said, it could only be integrated while being outside of the bloc. But, it would be a two-way road and there has to be EU goodwill to do so. But the truth is, I've not seen any concrete steps from the EU to enable that. I'm pretty sure that Putin's government was quite positive towards EU/USA up and until 2008 with its Munich speech. Russians saw nothing good from the EU and instead admitting that fact they are fed with offensive bullshit about dead journalists they have no business with. When Russians wanted to get rid of Putin in 2011-2012, EU and USA basically brought popcorn and did nothing. So, nothing happened and Putin remained in power, and had to double down on potential coups. Then he saw Maidan coup as an existential danger and had to make sure it doesn't end well.

mopsi 2y ago
> But the truth is, I've not seen any concrete steps from the EU to enable that. With such attitude, Eastern Europe would not have joined the EU either. Do you think anyone in 1991 wanted to see Poland in the EU? Do you think anyone came to offer EU membership on a silver platter while the Poles were sitting on their asses and reminiscing about Rzeczpospolita? Of course not: it took 15 years of determined work to get there, first to convince the existing members that it was even a good idea to begin with. Even after the negotiations officially started, membership prospects were widely seen as distant and mostly theoretical. "Oh shit, it's really happening" set in only 1-2 years before the official accession in 2004. Things first changed very slowly, and then very suddenly. But Russia never took the first step of swallowing their pride and adpting a pragmatic approach to building relations in a constructive manner, so naturally the rest never followed. If you think that Poles and many others didn't feel humiliated and unfairly treated at many points along the way, then you're wrong, but the long-term results made it all worth it, and Poland has transformed from "that backward cousin-fucking potatoland in the East" into an integral and respected part of the EU. > When Russians wanted to get rid of Putin in 2011-2012, EU and USA basically brought popcorn and did nothing. It's funny to see how the narrative keeps shifting. When it's convenient, the EU and US are encircling and staging coups and posing existential danger, and when another story is more convenient, they are doing too little. It's always someone else's fault.
- thriftwy 2y ago
  > Do you think anyone in 1991 wanted to see Poland in the EU? A hundred percent positive. Maybe Poland was viewed with some reservations, but with Czech, Baltic states and Croatia there was no cloud of doubt. Each one of these had patron states inside EU who would spend effort to ensure their entrance. Poland they mostly got as a land bridge and because of its patron USA. > But Russia never took the first step of swallowing their pride Why? Seriously though, why does anybody has to swallow pride in order to enter bilateral relations? You've also refused to swallow your pride regarding potraying some journalists as a principial obstacle. Shouldn't pride swallowing go both ways, if at all? Now we are having a war because apparently not enough pride was swallowed by both sides, and I hope you are happy. Any takeaways from that? > narrative keeps shifting There are multiple narratives. One narrative for Putin who does not like what Ukraine is doing and also does not like coups. A different narrative for fellow Russians who have uneasy relations with Putin and are divided on coups but also do not like what Ukraine is doing, for only partly overlapping of reasons. I am not Putin so my view is the latter, but since we all live in society I can also decode the former. There are other narratives there as well.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    > A hundred percent positive. Maybe Poland was viewed with some reservations, but with Czech, Baltic states and Croatia there was no cloud of doubt. Each one of these had patron states inside EU who would spend effort to ensure their entrance. Poland they mostly got as a land bridge and because of its patron USA. That is not a very widely shared view, to put it mildly. Memoirs of Eastern European statesmen, diplomats and other officials, as well as business representatives are littered with stories how they were laughed out of the room when they raised the topic of EU and NATO membership in early-to-mid 1990s. The prevalent vision was the so-called "multi-speed Europe"[1] with Western European members maintaining their tight integration and newer members getting some form of a diluted access to the common market. The fact that Eastern European countries became full members of the EU and NATO in 15 years without any restrictions is considered one of the most impressive diplomatic achievements in those countries, odds of which were considered fairly low in the early days. Ukraine is currently in a similar situation. While they have lots of sympathy, Ukraine is nevertheless a large country with lots of social and economic issues (now amplified by the war), and the EU is hesitant about fast integration out of fear that those issues could spill over into the EU. Through Macron, even the concept of "multi-speed Europe" has returned to circulation.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-speed_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-speed_Europe [2] https://www.politico.eu/article/france-president-emmanuel-macron-multi-speed-europe-enlargement-ukraine-moldova-balkans/ https://www.politico.eu/article/france-president-emmanuel-ma... > Seriously though, why does anybody has to swallow pride in order to enter bilateral relations? Because it is Russia, not anyone else, who has the delusion of being a great empire that deserves preferential treatment. If you are interested in EU integration, then there's a proven path to that goal. If you are too proud to take that path, then good luck underperforming for another century. The positive effects of EU's common market are well known, and above all it's your loss if boyars keep you out of it because Europeans don't bow down deep enough in front of them.

mopsi 2y ago

> But the truth is, I've not seen any concrete steps from the EU to enable that. With such attitude, Eastern Europe would not have joined the EU either. Do you think anyone in 1991 wanted to see Poland in the EU? Do you think anyone came to offer EU membership on a silver platter while the Poles were sitting on their asses and reminiscing about Rzeczpospolita? Of course not: it took 15 years of determined work to get there, first to convince the existing members that it was even a good idea to begin with. Even after the negotiations officially started, membership prospects were widely seen as distant and mostly theoretical. "Oh shit, it's really happening" set in only 1-2 years before the official accession in 2004. Things first changed very slowly, and then very suddenly. But Russia never took the first step of swallowing their pride and adpting a pragmatic approach to building relations in a constructive manner, so naturally the rest never followed. If you think that Poles and many others didn't feel humiliated and unfairly treated at many points along the way, then you're wrong, but the long-term results made it all worth it, and Poland has transformed from "that backward cousin-fucking potatoland in the East" into an integral and respected part of the EU. > When Russians wanted to get rid of Putin in 2011-2012, EU and USA basically brought popcorn and did nothing. It's funny to see how the narrative keeps shifting. When it's convenient, the EU and US are encircling and staging coups and posing existential danger, and when another story is more convenient, they are doing too little. It's always someone else's fault.

thriftwy 2y ago
> Do you think anyone in 1991 wanted to see Poland in the EU? A hundred percent positive. Maybe Poland was viewed with some reservations, but with Czech, Baltic states and Croatia there was no cloud of doubt. Each one of these had patron states inside EU who would spend effort to ensure their entrance. Poland they mostly got as a land bridge and because of its patron USA. > But Russia never took the first step of swallowing their pride Why? Seriously though, why does anybody has to swallow pride in order to enter bilateral relations? You've also refused to swallow your pride regarding potraying some journalists as a principial obstacle. Shouldn't pride swallowing go both ways, if at all? Now we are having a war because apparently not enough pride was swallowed by both sides, and I hope you are happy. Any takeaways from that? > narrative keeps shifting There are multiple narratives. One narrative for Putin who does not like what Ukraine is doing and also does not like coups. A different narrative for fellow Russians who have uneasy relations with Putin and are divided on coups but also do not like what Ukraine is doing, for only partly overlapping of reasons. I am not Putin so my view is the latter, but since we all live in society I can also decode the former. There are other narratives there as well.
- mopsi 2y ago
  > A hundred percent positive. Maybe Poland was viewed with some reservations, but with Czech, Baltic states and Croatia there was no cloud of doubt. Each one of these had patron states inside EU who would spend effort to ensure their entrance. Poland they mostly got as a land bridge and because of its patron USA. That is not a very widely shared view, to put it mildly. Memoirs of Eastern European statesmen, diplomats and other officials, as well as business representatives are littered with stories how they were laughed out of the room when they raised the topic of EU and NATO membership in early-to-mid 1990s. The prevalent vision was the so-called "multi-speed Europe"[1] with Western European members maintaining their tight integration and newer members getting some form of a diluted access to the common market. The fact that Eastern European countries became full members of the EU and NATO in 15 years without any restrictions is considered one of the most impressive diplomatic achievements in those countries, odds of which were considered fairly low in the early days. Ukraine is currently in a similar situation. While they have lots of sympathy, Ukraine is nevertheless a large country with lots of social and economic issues (now amplified by the war), and the EU is hesitant about fast integration out of fear that those issues could spill over into the EU. Through Macron, even the concept of "multi-speed Europe" has returned to circulation.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-speed_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-speed_Europe [2] https://www.politico.eu/article/france-president-emmanuel-macron-multi-speed-europe-enlargement-ukraine-moldova-balkans/ https://www.politico.eu/article/france-president-emmanuel-ma... > Seriously though, why does anybody has to swallow pride in order to enter bilateral relations? Because it is Russia, not anyone else, who has the delusion of being a great empire that deserves preferential treatment. If you are interested in EU integration, then there's a proven path to that goal. If you are too proud to take that path, then good luck underperforming for another century. The positive effects of EU's common market are well known, and above all it's your loss if boyars keep you out of it because Europeans don't bow down deep enough in front of them.