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It's also absolutely amazing for mental health. It's a shame it isn't considered a first line of treatment for mental health because it's super effective (and f

It's also absolutely amazing for mental health. It's a shame it isn't considered a first line of treatment for mental health because it's super effective (and free).

snemvalts 2y ago
Instead, people try to fix it with antidepressants, benzodiazepines or something else. It feels a bit like the US approach to pain management – instead of massages or physical therapy, some opioid pill is cheaper to prescribe.
- dailykoder 2y ago
  I dislike this black n white rhetoric from both sides. "Just do some workout" - "no this doesn't work for me". Yes, workout does help, but mental illness is still real. Both sides should try to be more sensitive and more understanding in my opinion. I can't fix my social anxiety through workout. But I sure can feel better about myself when doing it and then approach those anxieties with more confidence, but the anxieties are still there.
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    I'm not saying that workouts will necessarily fix your social anxiety or any other mental disorder, but I don't know of anything else that necessarily will - meds and psychotherapy are also quite limited in their effectiveness. All I'm saying is people should at least consider that exercise (and more specifically - mild to rigorous cardio workouts) can be just as effective as psychotherapy / meds are. The evidence is there. I don't expect this understanding to come from therapists, this needs to come from society at large. Also, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, you can do both.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    > my social anxiety I am considering trying some beta blockers. Did you try them? They seem like an interesting experiement.
    - dailykoder 2y ago
      Have you tried pineapple on your pizza? Seems like an interesting experiment
  - dangmumwhore 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - snemvalts 2y ago
    I'm speaking from experience regarding mental illnesses and exercise. And I never discounted medication. Just that exercise is critically underprescribed, I'm fairly sure it would work better for milder cases compared to meds. Not to mention the other health benefits listed in the thread. Same way an opioid pill is still prescribed in cases of cancer or severe pain. Just that there are probably better, milder alternatives that don't have as many side effects that could fit a lot of these people with milder problems.
    - dailykoder 2y ago
      I am 90% on your side (my experience is just that most doctors or therapists ask for my workout before considering meds). The truth is just that every mental illness is different. So yeah, my takeaway is we should embrace workout, or maybe not necesserily straight workout, but just simple movement/exercise, more than meds. Especially here in germany I notice a very bad/prejudice mindset about doctors. I myself had very good experience. Either just because of pure luck or because I went to them, because I geniuenely believe that they are professionals who can help me. And that's what they (most of the time, not always) did.
- noonanibus 2y ago
  It's not that hard a leap is it? For some reason it seems oblivious to non-sufferers that the idea of a physical treatment for a mental ailment is a given? For most folks, that connection doesn't exist. Hell, I work out 3x a week and even I don't notice the obvious side-effects even though I'm certain they exist. When we're dealing with ordinary people living their daily lives, the idea that something so "non-mental" - in the most literal sense "physical" can have an effect on the mental, is a really tough thing to swallow, understand and hell, even percept when things are going well? Sorry. But I'm an avid gym-goer and even I have to remind myself of the positive it's doing. We're not all the same.
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    > Sorry. But I'm an avid gym-goer and even I have to remind myself of the positive it's doing. We're not all the same. Maybe you're one of the people that for whatever reason exercise does nothing to - though I highly doubt it. I'm not sure what training you do exactly but to reap most of the benefits the workout should include moderate cardio work. I don't think going to lift weights for a 40-60 minutes with plenty of rest between sets will cut it. Running for 45+ minutes is what most people should aim for, of course beginners will do less. Anyway I agree with you - for most folks the connection doesn't exist, perhaps its time this changed.
    - SirMaster 2y ago
      Hmm, I've never felt any "noticeable" positive effect of exercise either. I didn't exercise basically at all for well over decade. But I felt fine, wasn't overweight or gaining weight or anything like that. But I decided that I should probably exercise, so have been for awhile now. Fortunately I have what appears to be a very high amount of self control so I'm able to just force myself to go exercise even though I hate every second of it and it just feels like a waste of time. I haven't noticed any changes to anything that I can think of since going from no exercise to 3-4 days a week of about 1 hour sessions of zone 2+ exercise. I just keep waiting for this magical benefit that some people talk about, but I get nothing. I'm only doing it because if I don't, supposedly "bad things" will happen to my body in the future.
- TillE 2y ago
  Exercise (and sunlight!) are proven treatments for mild to moderate depression. It's probably not all you need, but it's a very good start. Exercise does nothing for severe depression.
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    Agreed, but mild to moderate depression is the majority of people with mental health issues - that's where we should start. Also , I suspect it will also help a lot in severe depression but its hard to get someone with severe depression to exercise - in that case meds should be the way to go.
  - steve_adams_86 2y ago
    My depression is severe and exercise does make a difference. I’m not sure why you’d think that. It doesn’t make the bad thoughts go away. It doesn’t turn off the bad feelings. I’d still be diagnosed with severe depression if I went in with a fresh slate. What it does is give me the energy to endure it, though. The physiological symptoms subside quite a bit, and it makes a meaningful difference. It also helps more than medication since I seem to be a non-responder. It’s a big help in my life.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  Yep exactly this. The thing is we are now so removed from exercise (and healthy living in general) as a society - take the car, take the elevator, sit at your desk the whole day and then fall asleep in the couch at home. And paradoxically this lifestyle makes us so tired and energy depleted, that even the thought of starting to exercise seems ridiculous to many. This is making it super hard for many people to start exercising and persist, it seems like everything in modern society is geared to make us couch zombies - so no surprise we have high levels of obesity, anxiety, depression and what not.
makeitdouble 2y ago
I think it's partly because as it also works as prevention of those same mental illnesses, many patients will have a higher than average barrier to clear to exercise (including just getting out of the house for a walk). I've had friends able to start exercising a few months in their treatments, when the medication gave them more mental leeway. Before that they were fighting to wake up and properly eat, and do anything really.
fortyguy40 2y ago
I struggle with anxiety and have below average HRV and VO2max. I started jogging a month or so ago and have definitely seen an improvement in my mental health.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  I love hearing this. If you'll keep at it you'll see your fitness and VO2max explode up so don't worry about it. Do some easy miles a few times a week during the first few months, just keep at it and be consistent.
- oldpersonintx 2y ago
  [dead]
steve_adams_86 2y ago
I deal with pretty severe depression and running is far more effective than antidepressants. It varies for everyone, but I know I’m not alone. It’s tough because I’ve known this for 15 years or so, but when I’m in a hole it somehow seems like it’ll only make things worse. I understand why someone who hasn’t had the experience of feeling better from exercise would see the entire premise as unlikely or absurd.
SwiftyBug 2y ago
It wasn't before I had a good place to run (away from cars and the city) that I started running. Yes, it's free, but it's very hard to pick the habit if your environment doesn't help.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  No doubt. Picking any new habit is quite hard. If your immediate surroundings don't support running a treadmill could also be a good solution.
pjc50 2y ago
Exercise is the perfect treatment for mental health: it doesn't cost the "provider" anything, and when the patient doesn't do it because they're depressed or disordered, you can blame them for not cooperating. It's not a solution, it's something you can say so that it's not your problem any more. (Would be great if there were actually prescribed work-compatible supervised exercise sessions on offer, but AFAIK that's not a thing offered anywhere by any health service)
agos 2y ago
is it not? I thought the suggestion "have you tried exercising" to depressed people had reached meme status based on its frequency
- weatherlite 2y ago
  I'm not familiar with people suggesting this. It should come from school counselors , college counselors, family doctors and therapists. The thing is all these people, statistically, are not exercising enough themselves so I find it hard to believe they will offer exercise as a first line.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    It does. It's just that, as you've noticed, even those people giving the advice aren't exercising "enough" for you either because it's not as easy or rewarding as you think it is. Just saying "you should do more exercise" is completely useless because people tune it out like an advertising slogan they've heard 5,000 times before.
    - weatherlite 2y ago
      > because it's not as easy or rewarding as you think it is. Neither is therapy or taking chemicals. Yet we whole heartedly push it on people. Is it easy to go to a complete stranger and start talking about your most intimate childhood issues? Sometimes for years on? That is if you're lucky enough to find a therapist you actually click with and who knows what he/she is doing which is far from guaranteed (and that is if you can even afford the whole thing). I don't think it is easy or rewarding at all, to me running sounds easier. But as a society we just became conditioned to operate in our current bizarre ways - it doesn't mean its easy or sensible it just is. > Just saying "you should do more exercise" is completely useless Since the vast majority don't see exercise as a viable mental health therapy (as far as I know) it is indeed a bit useless to say it. If it was taken more seriously by the mental health community and society in general - then people would take it more seriously. By taking it seriously I mean a whole societal change. I see no reason why exercise shouldn't be subsidized just like other therapies sometimes are. Yes you will get a subsidy for a personal trainer who will work with you because you need it for your mental health - why isn't this happening at all?
rincebrain 2y ago
The problem is that, if you're in a position where you are having serious depression, for example, it doesn't really matter how objectively or subjectively helpful it is, you can't even bother getting motivated to do things you are certain you enjoy, let alone something unknown. This is the same problem with CPAP machines - they nominally have a huge efficacy rate, and a rock-bottom rate of people sticking to them, because for a lot of people, they're deeply invasive and uncomfortable, and insurance (in the US) in many cases has stopped paying for them if their obsessive babysitting doesn't swear you've used it 95% of the time, so people just say "hell with it" and stop stressing about, say, not being able to take a hike for a few days of camping because their insurance will stop paying for it. It all goes back to the fundamental premise of "if your solution requires changing people, you will not succeed."
- weatherlite 2y ago
  Imagine that on top (or even instead) of the chemicals and therapy a personal trainer would make sure you go to meet him (or he comes to your apartment) and does a session with you. This can work even with a severely depressed person. We prescribe these methods for physical therapy, so why can't there be physical therapy for the mind? We might be able to lower obesity/morbidity/depression by so much if we operated this way.
- thraway3837 2y ago
  Can you please elaborate? You’re saying that CPAP is effective but people don’t use it consistently, and insurance monitors its use and if they determine the % of use is lower than 95%, insurance will bill you instead? I thought people who require CPAP have severe enough sleep apnea that they could die from the lack of oxygen. Also how is this related to depression, you said “this is the same problem” after you mentioned depression.
  - IIsi50MHz 2y ago
    Chronic sleep disruptions that are treatable with CPAP machines are also strongly correlated with depression. Improving the effectiveness of sleep is a contributing factor to positive mental state.

It's also absolutely amazing for mental health. It's a shame it isn't considered a first line of treatment for mental health because it's super effective (and free).

snemvalts 2y ago

Instead, people try to fix it with antidepressants, benzodiazepines or something else. It feels a bit like the US approach to pain management – instead of massages or physical therapy, some opioid pill is cheaper to prescribe.

dailykoder 2y ago
I dislike this black n white rhetoric from both sides. "Just do some workout" - "no this doesn't work for me". Yes, workout does help, but mental illness is still real. Both sides should try to be more sensitive and more understanding in my opinion. I can't fix my social anxiety through workout. But I sure can feel better about myself when doing it and then approach those anxieties with more confidence, but the anxieties are still there.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  I'm not saying that workouts will necessarily fix your social anxiety or any other mental disorder, but I don't know of anything else that necessarily will - meds and psychotherapy are also quite limited in their effectiveness. All I'm saying is people should at least consider that exercise (and more specifically - mild to rigorous cardio workouts) can be just as effective as psychotherapy / meds are. The evidence is there. I don't expect this understanding to come from therapists, this needs to come from society at large. Also, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, you can do both.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > my social anxiety I am considering trying some beta blockers. Did you try them? They seem like an interesting experiement.
  - dailykoder 2y ago
    Have you tried pineapple on your pizza? Seems like an interesting experiment
- dangmumwhore 2y ago
  [flagged]
- snemvalts 2y ago
  I'm speaking from experience regarding mental illnesses and exercise. And I never discounted medication. Just that exercise is critically underprescribed, I'm fairly sure it would work better for milder cases compared to meds. Not to mention the other health benefits listed in the thread. Same way an opioid pill is still prescribed in cases of cancer or severe pain. Just that there are probably better, milder alternatives that don't have as many side effects that could fit a lot of these people with milder problems.
  - dailykoder 2y ago
    I am 90% on your side (my experience is just that most doctors or therapists ask for my workout before considering meds). The truth is just that every mental illness is different. So yeah, my takeaway is we should embrace workout, or maybe not necesserily straight workout, but just simple movement/exercise, more than meds. Especially here in germany I notice a very bad/prejudice mindset about doctors. I myself had very good experience. Either just because of pure luck or because I went to them, because I geniuenely believe that they are professionals who can help me. And that's what they (most of the time, not always) did.
noonanibus 2y ago
It's not that hard a leap is it? For some reason it seems oblivious to non-sufferers that the idea of a physical treatment for a mental ailment is a given? For most folks, that connection doesn't exist. Hell, I work out 3x a week and even I don't notice the obvious side-effects even though I'm certain they exist. When we're dealing with ordinary people living their daily lives, the idea that something so "non-mental" - in the most literal sense "physical" can have an effect on the mental, is a really tough thing to swallow, understand and hell, even percept when things are going well? Sorry. But I'm an avid gym-goer and even I have to remind myself of the positive it's doing. We're not all the same.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  > Sorry. But I'm an avid gym-goer and even I have to remind myself of the positive it's doing. We're not all the same. Maybe you're one of the people that for whatever reason exercise does nothing to - though I highly doubt it. I'm not sure what training you do exactly but to reap most of the benefits the workout should include moderate cardio work. I don't think going to lift weights for a 40-60 minutes with plenty of rest between sets will cut it. Running for 45+ minutes is what most people should aim for, of course beginners will do less. Anyway I agree with you - for most folks the connection doesn't exist, perhaps its time this changed.
  - SirMaster 2y ago
    Hmm, I've never felt any "noticeable" positive effect of exercise either. I didn't exercise basically at all for well over decade. But I felt fine, wasn't overweight or gaining weight or anything like that. But I decided that I should probably exercise, so have been for awhile now. Fortunately I have what appears to be a very high amount of self control so I'm able to just force myself to go exercise even though I hate every second of it and it just feels like a waste of time. I haven't noticed any changes to anything that I can think of since going from no exercise to 3-4 days a week of about 1 hour sessions of zone 2+ exercise. I just keep waiting for this magical benefit that some people talk about, but I get nothing. I'm only doing it because if I don't, supposedly "bad things" will happen to my body in the future.
TillE 2y ago
Exercise (and sunlight!) are proven treatments for mild to moderate depression. It's probably not all you need, but it's a very good start. Exercise does nothing for severe depression.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  Agreed, but mild to moderate depression is the majority of people with mental health issues - that's where we should start. Also , I suspect it will also help a lot in severe depression but its hard to get someone with severe depression to exercise - in that case meds should be the way to go.
- steve_adams_86 2y ago
  My depression is severe and exercise does make a difference. I’m not sure why you’d think that. It doesn’t make the bad thoughts go away. It doesn’t turn off the bad feelings. I’d still be diagnosed with severe depression if I went in with a fresh slate. What it does is give me the energy to endure it, though. The physiological symptoms subside quite a bit, and it makes a meaningful difference. It also helps more than medication since I seem to be a non-responder. It’s a big help in my life.
weatherlite 2y ago
Yep exactly this. The thing is we are now so removed from exercise (and healthy living in general) as a society - take the car, take the elevator, sit at your desk the whole day and then fall asleep in the couch at home. And paradoxically this lifestyle makes us so tired and energy depleted, that even the thought of starting to exercise seems ridiculous to many. This is making it super hard for many people to start exercising and persist, it seems like everything in modern society is geared to make us couch zombies - so no surprise we have high levels of obesity, anxiety, depression and what not.

makeitdouble 2y ago

I think it's partly because as it also works as prevention of those same mental illnesses, many patients will have a higher than average barrier to clear to exercise (including just getting out of the house for a walk). I've had friends able to start exercising a few months in their treatments, when the medication gave them more mental leeway. Before that they were fighting to wake up and properly eat, and do anything really.

fortyguy40 2y ago

I struggle with anxiety and have below average HRV and VO2max. I started jogging a month or so ago and have definitely seen an improvement in my mental health.

weatherlite 2y ago
I love hearing this. If you'll keep at it you'll see your fitness and VO2max explode up so don't worry about it. Do some easy miles a few times a week during the first few months, just keep at it and be consistent.
oldpersonintx 2y ago
[dead]

steve_adams_86 2y ago

I deal with pretty severe depression and running is far more effective than antidepressants. It varies for everyone, but I know I’m not alone. It’s tough because I’ve known this for 15 years or so, but when I’m in a hole it somehow seems like it’ll only make things worse. I understand why someone who hasn’t had the experience of feeling better from exercise would see the entire premise as unlikely or absurd.

SwiftyBug 2y ago

It wasn't before I had a good place to run (away from cars and the city) that I started running. Yes, it's free, but it's very hard to pick the habit if your environment doesn't help.

weatherlite 2y ago
No doubt. Picking any new habit is quite hard. If your immediate surroundings don't support running a treadmill could also be a good solution.

pjc50 2y ago

Exercise is the perfect treatment for mental health: it doesn't cost the "provider" anything, and when the patient doesn't do it because they're depressed or disordered, you can blame them for not cooperating. It's not a solution, it's something you can say so that it's not your problem any more. (Would be great if there were actually prescribed work-compatible supervised exercise sessions on offer, but AFAIK that's not a thing offered anywhere by any health service)

agos 2y ago

is it not? I thought the suggestion "have you tried exercising" to depressed people had reached meme status based on its frequency

weatherlite 2y ago
I'm not familiar with people suggesting this. It should come from school counselors , college counselors, family doctors and therapists. The thing is all these people, statistically, are not exercising enough themselves so I find it hard to believe they will offer exercise as a first line.
- pjc50 2y ago
  It does. It's just that, as you've noticed, even those people giving the advice aren't exercising "enough" for you either because it's not as easy or rewarding as you think it is. Just saying "you should do more exercise" is completely useless because people tune it out like an advertising slogan they've heard 5,000 times before.
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    > because it's not as easy or rewarding as you think it is. Neither is therapy or taking chemicals. Yet we whole heartedly push it on people. Is it easy to go to a complete stranger and start talking about your most intimate childhood issues? Sometimes for years on? That is if you're lucky enough to find a therapist you actually click with and who knows what he/she is doing which is far from guaranteed (and that is if you can even afford the whole thing). I don't think it is easy or rewarding at all, to me running sounds easier. But as a society we just became conditioned to operate in our current bizarre ways - it doesn't mean its easy or sensible it just is. > Just saying "you should do more exercise" is completely useless Since the vast majority don't see exercise as a viable mental health therapy (as far as I know) it is indeed a bit useless to say it. If it was taken more seriously by the mental health community and society in general - then people would take it more seriously. By taking it seriously I mean a whole societal change. I see no reason why exercise shouldn't be subsidized just like other therapies sometimes are. Yes you will get a subsidy for a personal trainer who will work with you because you need it for your mental health - why isn't this happening at all?

rincebrain 2y ago

The problem is that, if you're in a position where you are having serious depression, for example, it doesn't really matter how objectively or subjectively helpful it is, you can't even bother getting motivated to do things you are certain you enjoy, let alone something unknown. This is the same problem with CPAP machines - they nominally have a huge efficacy rate, and a rock-bottom rate of people sticking to them, because for a lot of people, they're deeply invasive and uncomfortable, and insurance (in the US) in many cases has stopped paying for them if their obsessive babysitting doesn't swear you've used it 95% of the time, so people just say "hell with it" and stop stressing about, say, not being able to take a hike for a few days of camping because their insurance will stop paying for it. It all goes back to the fundamental premise of "if your solution requires changing people, you will not succeed."

weatherlite 2y ago
Imagine that on top (or even instead) of the chemicals and therapy a personal trainer would make sure you go to meet him (or he comes to your apartment) and does a session with you. This can work even with a severely depressed person. We prescribe these methods for physical therapy, so why can't there be physical therapy for the mind? We might be able to lower obesity/morbidity/depression by so much if we operated this way.
thraway3837 2y ago
Can you please elaborate? You’re saying that CPAP is effective but people don’t use it consistently, and insurance monitors its use and if they determine the % of use is lower than 95%, insurance will bill you instead? I thought people who require CPAP have severe enough sleep apnea that they could die from the lack of oxygen. Also how is this related to depression, you said “this is the same problem” after you mentioned depression.
- IIsi50MHz 2y ago
  Chronic sleep disruptions that are treatable with CPAP machines are also strongly correlated with depression. Improving the effectiveness of sleep is a contributing factor to positive mental state.