6 ms·

Many years ago I stopped by a zoo in France, with my 7mo son. I was pushing him in the stroller while he was napping, and at the orangutan exhibit, one came up

Many years ago I stopped by a zoo in France, with my 7mo son. I was pushing him in the stroller while he was napping, and at the orangutan exhibit, one came up to the window and gestured towards the stroller. I turned the stroller to face the window, and removed the hood. The orangutan blew my son a kiss, waved then went back to the otherside of its enclosure. Made me rethink what I knew about animal intelligence.

eellpp 2y ago
After reading this, the choice of word "exhibit" hurts
- gonzo41 2y ago
  Animal prison.
  - bredren 2y ago
    Zoos are are a terrible entertainment business. All the primates and megafauna especially, it is a tragedy. I'm certain they'll be looked back on with shame. Even as zoos market videos of animals "eating birthday cake" on social media. See also zoos' dark history entwined with ethnological expositions https://archive.is/xsuEU https://archive.is/xsuEU
    - trogdor 2y ago
      I’m not sure that’s a fair statement to make categorically. Many zoos provide homes, food, and veterinary care for animals that would not be able to survive in the wild. For example, the mountain lion at Arizona Sonora Desert Museum is blind, and many of their other animals had been kept illegally by their previous owners, were confiscated by Arizona Game & Fish, and needed a place to live so they wouldn’t die.
    - xvector 2y ago
      Factory farms will be looked back on with 10,000x more shame and horror than zoos. Zoos barely scratch the surface of the immense and unnecessary cruelty we inflict on animals. We torture 70 billion land animals to death every year and the poor things will never even understand why - they're just babies, mentally speaking. It's objectively the greatest evil humans have ever committed, and for our own pleasure at that. We inflict pure hellish suffering because "tAsTe bUdS gO BRRR!" It's hard to even comprehend something more comically, absurdly evil, both in terms of motive and sheer scale of suffering. At least zoos do trigger an empathy response and get people to care about animals more.
      - vbezhenar 2y ago
        What? We eat meat. We need to eat meat. So we need to kill animals for that. Zoos absolutely not required for humans to survive.
        xvector 2y ago
        > We eat meat. Purely for taste. > We need to eat meat. False. 10-20% of the world population does not and we're just fine. > So we need to kill animals for that. No, you want to kill animals because you want tasty food. Not because you "need" meat. No one living in an industrialized country does. It's trivial to create a plant-based balanced diet (and a tasty one at that.) > Zoos absolutely not required for humans to survive. Neither are factory farms. They exist to satisfy "taste buds go brr." But that is not worth literally torturing[1] an animal to death. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko
        makerdiety 2y ago
        Taste is an indicator of goodness. Therefore, good taste means high goodness.
      - mikrotikker 2y ago
        Not to mention the many millions of horses killed in wars
  - Voultapher 2y ago
    There is also the grim reality that most pets would run away and not come back if you were to open the "prison doors". Think of birds, reptiles, dogs etc. Our interaction with other life on this planet is very human centric, some call this human supremacism. A line is drawn between us and other animals, and the justification is quite arbitrary in my opinion. A line that is used to justify a vast number of atrocities and systemic exploitation. I don't believe there is no meaningful difference between a human and a cricket. But between a human and a dog or pig? That's close enough that I'm willing to extrapolate.
    - mrkstu 2y ago
      My dogs that have escaped the yard go walkabout for a bit and then make their way home. My daughter's covid puppy has zero desire to be away from his human family- he's constantly looking for a human family member to hang out with and won't scamper away given the chance. Now a bird/snake generally will be gone given the chance- but they truly are wild animals, while dogs are bred to be co-dependent with humans.
      - Voultapher 2y ago
        Indeed dogs have been genetically modified over millennia to the point many wouldn't even be able to survive in the wild, whether you think that justifies our actions is up to you. In addition the chances they want to escape are smaller than for birds. I looked it up and found this source https://www.petlink.net/blog/chance-dogs-coming-back-run-away/ https://www.petlink.net/blog/chance-dogs-coming-back-run-awa... that says "The unfortunate reality is that 15% of dogs across the United States go missing.". For context that's not 15% of dogs want to leave and do so. What's the percentage of dogs that had the chance to leave? Let's say 50%, which would imply that given the chance 1 in 3 dogs left. Albeit not all of the because they disliked their home/prison. Looking at the language used in that article exposes some mental gymnastics. They simultaneously state that dogs could find their way back if they wanted and compare it to loosing a child! No, the dog is not a child, and if the reasons you provide why they "go missing" are "Fear from loud noises, Easy escape routes, Boredom and Prey drive" I find it hard to ignore that these are adult conscious beings that may not want to live with us, and only do so when given no alternative.
jader201 2y ago
Reminded me of this tweet I saw a couple weeks ago (from our local zoo): https://twitter.com/amazlngnature/status/1782416298636345452 https://twitter.com/amazlngnature/status/1782416298636345452
grecy 2y ago
I was lucky enough to spend a bunch of time with Chimpanzees and Gorillas in Africa (mostly West Africa). I got to carry them, play with them and just chill with them in the jungle [1]. Staring into their eyes it is impossible to deny we are them and they are us. Their facial expressions, emotions, reactions, playfulness and also anger, jealousy and all the rest are incredible to be a part of. Often I was on the other side of a fence, but the times I was right in the middle of it all are something I will never forget as long as I live. I have no doubt future generations will look back on us as heathens for keeping intelligent animals locked in cages. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfdo3s8tPUk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfdo3s8tPUk
- mehulashah 2y ago
  These are magnificent creatures. There is so much more left for us to learn about them and us. Phenomenal.
  - grecy 2y ago
    Out of interest, do you call other humans "creatures" ? I find out use of wording interesting, and it helps justify putting them in cages and doing experiments on them.
    - mehulashah 2y ago
      No I don’t, and it wasn’t intended that way. It was the opposite— they’re magnificent. They’re clearly not of our species. That does not mean they should be caged.
- Log_out_ 2y ago
  Future generations will look at us as monsters propping up highly western economy dependent sanctuaries in economic fragile regions just before the big crash, sentencing sentients to die out of romanticism and a unrealistic view of us in reality.
ornornor 2y ago
The way we treat animals is terrifying as they’re likely much much more sentient than we make ourselves believe (mostly for our own convenience)
- jhanschoo 2y ago
  Many animals are known to be very sentient (have feelings), you are thinking of sapience.
  - ornornor 2y ago
    Either way, we treat most of animals as if they weren’t either.
- bamboozled 2y ago
  I think we know, we just pretend they’re not so we don’t feel bad about being complete assholes.
penguin_booze 2y ago
> The orangutan blew my son a kiss Excuse being the kill joy: the fellow might be mimicking a gesture it learned from other visitors. That's not to say they don't have an inner life--we're all made of the same substrate, after all.
- noja 2y ago
  Isn't this what humans do?
  - madaxe_again 2y ago
    Yes. We are particularly accomplished mimics. Originality is exceedingly rare. We like to think of ourselves as different, but we are just inhabited by far more ghosts than animals without language.
  - penguin_booze 2y ago
    We do mimic, but I was saying the animal wasn't exactly (probably) expressing its affection/adoration for a human baby with a flying kiss gesture. Had the animal picked up a vulgar gesture from a human visitor, it might as well have chosen that gesture at the baby instead, without necessarily knowing its inappropriate. A human parent, understandably, will not be very pleased with such an incident.
    - MailleQuiMaille 2y ago
      So you are saying that it might have learn by trial and error to use appropriate social signs directed to the appropriate social settings…? And that differs from us how exactly ?
      - swores 2y ago
        Obviously it would be interesting if that's what happened, but no, what they were saying is that it could well be that it had only been exposed to visitors doing nice gestures and was repeating them back with no understanding of nice vs nasty. Not that the anecdote proves their guess is more right than yours, but afaik there is more evidence of animals mirroring unthinkingly than understanding.
ljsprague 2y ago
Was it Nénette? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9nette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9nette
- balls187 2y ago
  No. This was at zoo du Bassin d’Arcachon
fsckboy 2y ago
> The orangutan blew my son a kiss orangutan chef's kiss?

eellpp 2y ago

After reading this, the choice of word "exhibit" hurts

gonzo41 2y ago
Animal prison.
- bredren 2y ago
  Zoos are are a terrible entertainment business. All the primates and megafauna especially, it is a tragedy. I'm certain they'll be looked back on with shame. Even as zoos market videos of animals "eating birthday cake" on social media. See also zoos' dark history entwined with ethnological expositions https://archive.is/xsuEU https://archive.is/xsuEU
  - trogdor 2y ago
    I’m not sure that’s a fair statement to make categorically. Many zoos provide homes, food, and veterinary care for animals that would not be able to survive in the wild. For example, the mountain lion at Arizona Sonora Desert Museum is blind, and many of their other animals had been kept illegally by their previous owners, were confiscated by Arizona Game & Fish, and needed a place to live so they wouldn’t die.
  - xvector 2y ago
    Factory farms will be looked back on with 10,000x more shame and horror than zoos. Zoos barely scratch the surface of the immense and unnecessary cruelty we inflict on animals. We torture 70 billion land animals to death every year and the poor things will never even understand why - they're just babies, mentally speaking. It's objectively the greatest evil humans have ever committed, and for our own pleasure at that. We inflict pure hellish suffering because "tAsTe bUdS gO BRRR!" It's hard to even comprehend something more comically, absurdly evil, both in terms of motive and sheer scale of suffering. At least zoos do trigger an empathy response and get people to care about animals more.
    - vbezhenar 2y ago
      What? We eat meat. We need to eat meat. So we need to kill animals for that. Zoos absolutely not required for humans to survive.
      - xvector 2y ago
        > We eat meat. Purely for taste. > We need to eat meat. False. 10-20% of the world population does not and we're just fine. > So we need to kill animals for that. No, you want to kill animals because you want tasty food. Not because you "need" meat. No one living in an industrialized country does. It's trivial to create a plant-based balanced diet (and a tasty one at that.) > Zoos absolutely not required for humans to survive. Neither are factory farms. They exist to satisfy "taste buds go brr." But that is not worth literally torturing[1] an animal to death. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko
        makerdiety 2y ago
        Taste is an indicator of goodness. Therefore, good taste means high goodness.
    - mikrotikker 2y ago
      Not to mention the many millions of horses killed in wars
- Voultapher 2y ago
  There is also the grim reality that most pets would run away and not come back if you were to open the "prison doors". Think of birds, reptiles, dogs etc. Our interaction with other life on this planet is very human centric, some call this human supremacism. A line is drawn between us and other animals, and the justification is quite arbitrary in my opinion. A line that is used to justify a vast number of atrocities and systemic exploitation. I don't believe there is no meaningful difference between a human and a cricket. But between a human and a dog or pig? That's close enough that I'm willing to extrapolate.
  - mrkstu 2y ago
    My dogs that have escaped the yard go walkabout for a bit and then make their way home. My daughter's covid puppy has zero desire to be away from his human family- he's constantly looking for a human family member to hang out with and won't scamper away given the chance. Now a bird/snake generally will be gone given the chance- but they truly are wild animals, while dogs are bred to be co-dependent with humans.
    - Voultapher 2y ago
      Indeed dogs have been genetically modified over millennia to the point many wouldn't even be able to survive in the wild, whether you think that justifies our actions is up to you. In addition the chances they want to escape are smaller than for birds. I looked it up and found this source https://www.petlink.net/blog/chance-dogs-coming-back-run-away/ https://www.petlink.net/blog/chance-dogs-coming-back-run-awa... that says "The unfortunate reality is that 15% of dogs across the United States go missing.". For context that's not 15% of dogs want to leave and do so. What's the percentage of dogs that had the chance to leave? Let's say 50%, which would imply that given the chance 1 in 3 dogs left. Albeit not all of the because they disliked their home/prison. Looking at the language used in that article exposes some mental gymnastics. They simultaneously state that dogs could find their way back if they wanted and compare it to loosing a child! No, the dog is not a child, and if the reasons you provide why they "go missing" are "Fear from loud noises, Easy escape routes, Boredom and Prey drive" I find it hard to ignore that these are adult conscious beings that may not want to live with us, and only do so when given no alternative.

jader201 2y ago

Reminded me of this tweet I saw a couple weeks ago (from our local zoo): https://twitter.com/amazlngnature/status/1782416298636345452 https://twitter.com/amazlngnature/status/1782416298636345452

grecy 2y ago

I was lucky enough to spend a bunch of time with Chimpanzees and Gorillas in Africa (mostly West Africa). I got to carry them, play with them and just chill with them in the jungle [1]. Staring into their eyes it is impossible to deny we are them and they are us. Their facial expressions, emotions, reactions, playfulness and also anger, jealousy and all the rest are incredible to be a part of. Often I was on the other side of a fence, but the times I was right in the middle of it all are something I will never forget as long as I live. I have no doubt future generations will look back on us as heathens for keeping intelligent animals locked in cages. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfdo3s8tPUk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfdo3s8tPUk

mehulashah 2y ago
These are magnificent creatures. There is so much more left for us to learn about them and us. Phenomenal.
- grecy 2y ago
  Out of interest, do you call other humans "creatures" ? I find out use of wording interesting, and it helps justify putting them in cages and doing experiments on them.
  - mehulashah 2y ago
    No I don’t, and it wasn’t intended that way. It was the opposite— they’re magnificent. They’re clearly not of our species. That does not mean they should be caged.
Log_out_ 2y ago
Future generations will look at us as monsters propping up highly western economy dependent sanctuaries in economic fragile regions just before the big crash, sentencing sentients to die out of romanticism and a unrealistic view of us in reality.

ornornor 2y ago

The way we treat animals is terrifying as they’re likely much much more sentient than we make ourselves believe (mostly for our own convenience)

jhanschoo 2y ago
Many animals are known to be very sentient (have feelings), you are thinking of sapience.
- ornornor 2y ago
  Either way, we treat most of animals as if they weren’t either.
bamboozled 2y ago
I think we know, we just pretend they’re not so we don’t feel bad about being complete assholes.

penguin_booze 2y ago

> The orangutan blew my son a kiss Excuse being the kill joy: the fellow might be mimicking a gesture it learned from other visitors. That's not to say they don't have an inner life--we're all made of the same substrate, after all.

noja 2y ago
Isn't this what humans do?
- madaxe_again 2y ago
  Yes. We are particularly accomplished mimics. Originality is exceedingly rare. We like to think of ourselves as different, but we are just inhabited by far more ghosts than animals without language.
- penguin_booze 2y ago
  We do mimic, but I was saying the animal wasn't exactly (probably) expressing its affection/adoration for a human baby with a flying kiss gesture. Had the animal picked up a vulgar gesture from a human visitor, it might as well have chosen that gesture at the baby instead, without necessarily knowing its inappropriate. A human parent, understandably, will not be very pleased with such an incident.
  - MailleQuiMaille 2y ago
    So you are saying that it might have learn by trial and error to use appropriate social signs directed to the appropriate social settings…? And that differs from us how exactly ?
    - swores 2y ago
      Obviously it would be interesting if that's what happened, but no, what they were saying is that it could well be that it had only been exposed to visitors doing nice gestures and was repeating them back with no understanding of nice vs nasty. Not that the anecdote proves their guess is more right than yours, but afaik there is more evidence of animals mirroring unthinkingly than understanding.

ljsprague 2y ago

Was it Nénette? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9nette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9nette

balls187 2y ago
No. This was at zoo du Bassin d’Arcachon

fsckboy 2y ago

> The orangutan blew my son a kiss orangutan chef's kiss?