4 ms·

I went digging around for numbers in these wikipedia articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demograp

I went digging around for numbers in these wikipedia articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Jews https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews#Population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews#Population These articles agree that Jews of European ancestry comprise around 44.2% vs 44.9% of Middle Eastern and North African (MENA) ancestry. The study that gave these numbers admitted on having methodological limitations, so it may be undercounting MENA ancestry. Another interesting statistic is the paternal ancestral origin of Israeli Jews, with 37% having Israeli paternal origin, 34.6% European, American or Oceanic, and only 27.9% having Asian or African. So at least for the last couple of generations, a plurality of immigrants of of European descent. I’m sorry, but I’m not finding the well over 50% statistic. What is also interesting to me is the lack of official statistics from the Israeli government about this ethnic brake down, especially since they make distinctions between Jews and Arabs, which kind of implies—at least to my ears—Arab Jews should not exist. To my ears Israeli culture fancies it self as European (being a member of UEFA, partaking in Eurovision, etc.). It really looks to me like Israel has made an effort and succeeded in stripping Middle Eastern Jews of their identity[1]. A major tell sign is how Jews of Middle Eastern and North African ancestry speak Hebrew, not Arabic, despite the latter both being a minority language spoken in Israel, and despite the latter being the language of their ancestors. Colonizers often do stunts like these when absorbing the colonized population into their own culture. 1: https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2017/9/20/invention-of-the-mizrahim https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2017/9/20/invention-of-th...

ido 3y ago
If 44.9% (or more) of Israeli Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, and 20% of Israel’s entire population are Palestinian Arabs (I.e. also of Middle Eastern descent) then more than 50% of the entire population of the country (Jews + non-Jews) are of Middle Eastern descent. And the biggest ethnic grouping (if you choose to group them that way, as all such groupings are somewhat arbitrary) are Middle Eastern Jews. And I’m sorry but it just sounds like you’ve never lived in Israel or even visited for an extended period of time. Aside from the relatively recent immigrants from the former Soviet Union (starting from the 90s) Jews of all backgrounds speak primarily Hebrew, whether Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, or whatever. Aside from some ultra orthodox you will also not find anyone under 80 speaking Yiddish.
- runarberg 3y ago
  I see, however I was under the impression that Jews in Arabic countries (including Palestine) spoke primarily Arabic, and it was only after they migrated (or were otherwise absorbed into) Israel when they converted to Hebrew. And that the modern Hebrew language was a Zionist effort (a European colonial enterprise) to convert all immigrants to Israel to Hebrew speakers. So even though today most Israeli Jews speak Hebrew, the only reason for that is the colonial prospects of European settlers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Arabic_dialects#Present_day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Arabic_dialects#Present_...
  - tptacek 3y ago
    It is hard to understand the point you're trying to make here. Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans". I don't know that trying to sort out whether Hebrew is European or not is an especially productive enterprise.
    - racional 3y ago
      Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans." I'd recommend you also start reading more carefully, please. This (the idea that "MENA are European") is very clearly not what runarberg is saying. Nor are they even remotely suggesting that "Hebrew is European".
      - tptacek 3y ago
        You're responding to a comment that opens up "it is hard to understand what point you're making". You can tell me what the point he's making is, if you're confident in it. In turn, I'll be more careful about using quotation marks. That's an HN tic that I sometimes forget. While I have both of your attention --- you all get that this is the same group of like 4-6 people talking to themselves, over and over, right? On HN, a 2-day-old threat is necrotic. As I've said elsewhere, I only really have two angles on this issue: (1) that Israelis aren't European and Gazans aren't Hamas, and (2) that none of this is ever going to get settled on HN.
tptacek 2y ago
I'm necroposting here, but this has been stuck in my head for a week: Israel participates in Eurovision because it's a member of the EBU. Several Arab states are also members of the EBU, including neighbor states Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt, along with Libya and Morocco (which has in fact participated). The Arab states are boycotting Eurovision because of Israel's participation. It seems pretty clear that whatever other factors you want to weigh here, you can't judge Israel's Europeanness by its inclusion in Eurovision.
- pvg 2y ago
  The UEFA story is roughly the same, just slightly worse and Israel did not end up there by choice or some self-perception of European-ness.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    I just used those of examples of how much Israel fancies it self as a European culture. There are more examples, which together makes a convincing argument that Israel is way more a European culture than it is Middle Eastern. > Israel participates in Eurovision because it's a member of the EBU No, that is not the reason, being a member of EBU is neither a necessity nor sufficient reason for entry. Morocco is the only non-European EBU member to ever participate, they did it once in 1980, came in second to last (above Finland) with Italy the only country to give them points. They have not participated since probably because of poor cultural fit. On the flip side, Australia has participated multiple times without being an EBU member. The only reason Australia participates is because of the shared European culture. > The Arab states are boycotting Eurovision because of Israel's participation. The Arab states have not participated even in the years which Israel is not competing, which was the case in 1980. Turkey has participated multiple times along side Israel, even in 2011 a year after the Gaza flotilla raid. That said the Arab states may be boycotting because of Israel’s participation, but that does not disproof the fact that Israel participates because it fancies it self as European. > The UEFA story is roughly the same Perhaps, but Israel applied to and were granted memberships to the UEFA based on their European cultural identity. Greenland was not given the same break and had to apply to CONCACAF (but Kazakhstan was; curiously). When South Africa was kicked out of CAF they did not ask to join UEFA or OFC, instead had to wait until they ended Apartheid and then rejoin CAF.

ido 3y ago

If 44.9% (or more) of Israeli Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, and 20% of Israel’s entire population are Palestinian Arabs (I.e. also of Middle Eastern descent) then more than 50% of the entire population of the country (Jews + non-Jews) are of Middle Eastern descent. And the biggest ethnic grouping (if you choose to group them that way, as all such groupings are somewhat arbitrary) are Middle Eastern Jews. And I’m sorry but it just sounds like you’ve never lived in Israel or even visited for an extended period of time. Aside from the relatively recent immigrants from the former Soviet Union (starting from the 90s) Jews of all backgrounds speak primarily Hebrew, whether Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, or whatever. Aside from some ultra orthodox you will also not find anyone under 80 speaking Yiddish.

runarberg 3y ago
I see, however I was under the impression that Jews in Arabic countries (including Palestine) spoke primarily Arabic, and it was only after they migrated (or were otherwise absorbed into) Israel when they converted to Hebrew. And that the modern Hebrew language was a Zionist effort (a European colonial enterprise) to convert all immigrants to Israel to Hebrew speakers. So even though today most Israeli Jews speak Hebrew, the only reason for that is the colonial prospects of European settlers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Arabic_dialects#Present_day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Arabic_dialects#Present_...
- tptacek 3y ago
  It is hard to understand the point you're trying to make here. Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans". I don't know that trying to sort out whether Hebrew is European or not is an especially productive enterprise.
  - racional 3y ago
    Israeli Jewish people of Iraqi origin are MENA people, not "colonial Europeans." I'd recommend you also start reading more carefully, please. This (the idea that "MENA are European") is very clearly not what runarberg is saying. Nor are they even remotely suggesting that "Hebrew is European".
    - tptacek 3y ago
      You're responding to a comment that opens up "it is hard to understand what point you're making". You can tell me what the point he's making is, if you're confident in it. In turn, I'll be more careful about using quotation marks. That's an HN tic that I sometimes forget. While I have both of your attention --- you all get that this is the same group of like 4-6 people talking to themselves, over and over, right? On HN, a 2-day-old threat is necrotic. As I've said elsewhere, I only really have two angles on this issue: (1) that Israelis aren't European and Gazans aren't Hamas, and (2) that none of this is ever going to get settled on HN.

tptacek 2y ago

I'm necroposting here, but this has been stuck in my head for a week: Israel participates in Eurovision because it's a member of the EBU. Several Arab states are also members of the EBU, including neighbor states Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt, along with Libya and Morocco (which has in fact participated). The Arab states are boycotting Eurovision because of Israel's participation. It seems pretty clear that whatever other factors you want to weigh here, you can't judge Israel's Europeanness by its inclusion in Eurovision.

pvg 2y ago
The UEFA story is roughly the same, just slightly worse and Israel did not end up there by choice or some self-perception of European-ness.
- runarberg 2y ago
  I just used those of examples of how much Israel fancies it self as a European culture. There are more examples, which together makes a convincing argument that Israel is way more a European culture than it is Middle Eastern. > Israel participates in Eurovision because it's a member of the EBU No, that is not the reason, being a member of EBU is neither a necessity nor sufficient reason for entry. Morocco is the only non-European EBU member to ever participate, they did it once in 1980, came in second to last (above Finland) with Italy the only country to give them points. They have not participated since probably because of poor cultural fit. On the flip side, Australia has participated multiple times without being an EBU member. The only reason Australia participates is because of the shared European culture. > The Arab states are boycotting Eurovision because of Israel's participation. The Arab states have not participated even in the years which Israel is not competing, which was the case in 1980. Turkey has participated multiple times along side Israel, even in 2011 a year after the Gaza flotilla raid. That said the Arab states may be boycotting because of Israel’s participation, but that does not disproof the fact that Israel participates because it fancies it self as European. > The UEFA story is roughly the same Perhaps, but Israel applied to and were granted memberships to the UEFA based on their European cultural identity. Greenland was not given the same break and had to apply to CONCACAF (but Kazakhstan was; curiously). When South Africa was kicked out of CAF they did not ask to join UEFA or OFC, instead had to wait until they ended Apartheid and then rejoin CAF.