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Do you have any doubts that unionizing will greatly accelerate this natural process? The race to big wage can be honestly won with only one method: the company

Do you have any doubts that unionizing will greatly accelerate this natural process? The race to big wage can be honestly won with only one method: the company should extract more value from your work than it costs them to pay you, and more than it would extract from a cheaper replacement. If it is so, firing you hurts the company more than paying you a lot, and no sensible business will ever get rid of such an employee.

littlestymaar 2y ago
> Do you have any doubts that unionizing will greatly accelerate this natural process? Nope, quite the opposite actually: with strong unions a big company cannot move work piecemeal (as the Union would strike back to block that in a way that makes small moves unprofitable for the company) and moving the whole company at once is impractical so they are stuck. Without unions, the company can work at their own pace till the last employee. In a class war, like in all war, you either unite or perish divided. > The race to big wage can be honestly won with only one method That's a convoluted way to day it cannot be won. But the reality is that it can in fact be won, of collective action of citizens put enough pressure (through laws) on companies to prevent them from seeking profit at the expense of the society they live in. That's how it always work, and when there's no organized political action against big corps, the people are always losing. Unions and state intervention are how the US people (and Europeans too) reached prosperity after WWII, and there's no way around that. Laissez faire only make a handful of winners at the expense of everybody else.
- Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
  If you view the relationship between the employees and an employers through Marxist class war lens, then, as an employee, you should fully expect reciprocal reaction from employers. I prefer to view it as mutually beneficial cooperation. If my value to the employer is not as high as I think it should be, it is either a reason to readjust my expectations, improve my productivity or change the employer.
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
    > If you view the relationship between the employees and an employers through Marxist class war lens, then, as an employee, you should fully expect reciprocal reaction from employers. The employers everywhere, everyday, have shown that it's exactly how they behave. In fact, my reaction is only the reciprocal reaction to theirs. “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” Warren Buffet > I prefer to view it as mutually beneficial cooperation. I can't stop you from believing in Santa Claus for sure, but for sure I'll still hope you grow up one day. > If my value to the employer is not as high as I think it should be, it is either a reason to readjust my expectations, improve my productivity You have been well formatted by propaganda, they can be proud of them indeed.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
      > You have been well formatted by propaganda, they can be proud of them indeed. I don't think you are here for a productive discourse. It is more likely you are waging a class war here. Please, find another person to preach Marxism to, I come from a country that has suffered greatly from Marxist ideology and the damage was so severe that recovery is still not in sight.
      - littlestymaar 2y ago
        > I don't think you are here for a productive discourse. It is more likely you are waging a class war here. Hey, you're the one who started preaching ideology in that thread, you cannot complain if I do the same afterwards ;). > Please, find another person to preach Marxism to, When you grow up, you'll learn that the world is not black and white, and if you look past the cold war propaganda, there's actually nuance between the two evils that are actual Communism and Liberalism. The only system that actually delivered prosperity anywhere in the world is the Welfare state, and it has nothing to do with Marxism except that it recognizes that unconstrained Capitalism lead to bad outcome (and, in practice, Fascism, more often than not). > I come from a country that has suffered greatly from Marxist ideology and the damage was so severe that recovery is still not in sight. What country is it? The damage from Communism were indeed sever when it lasted, but in most former communists countries, one must not confuse what we're seeing now with the aftermath of Communism, when it's in fact the natural consequences of the new Capitalist order that emerged after its demise.

littlestymaar 2y ago

> Do you have any doubts that unionizing will greatly accelerate this natural process? Nope, quite the opposite actually: with strong unions a big company cannot move work piecemeal (as the Union would strike back to block that in a way that makes small moves unprofitable for the company) and moving the whole company at once is impractical so they are stuck. Without unions, the company can work at their own pace till the last employee. In a class war, like in all war, you either unite or perish divided. > The race to big wage can be honestly won with only one method That's a convoluted way to day it cannot be won. But the reality is that it can in fact be won, of collective action of citizens put enough pressure (through laws) on companies to prevent them from seeking profit at the expense of the society they live in. That's how it always work, and when there's no organized political action against big corps, the people are always losing. Unions and state intervention are how the US people (and Europeans too) reached prosperity after WWII, and there's no way around that. Laissez faire only make a handful of winners at the expense of everybody else.

Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
If you view the relationship between the employees and an employers through Marxist class war lens, then, as an employee, you should fully expect reciprocal reaction from employers. I prefer to view it as mutually beneficial cooperation. If my value to the employer is not as high as I think it should be, it is either a reason to readjust my expectations, improve my productivity or change the employer.
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  > If you view the relationship between the employees and an employers through Marxist class war lens, then, as an employee, you should fully expect reciprocal reaction from employers. The employers everywhere, everyday, have shown that it's exactly how they behave. In fact, my reaction is only the reciprocal reaction to theirs. “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” Warren Buffet > I prefer to view it as mutually beneficial cooperation. I can't stop you from believing in Santa Claus for sure, but for sure I'll still hope you grow up one day. > If my value to the employer is not as high as I think it should be, it is either a reason to readjust my expectations, improve my productivity You have been well formatted by propaganda, they can be proud of them indeed.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
    > You have been well formatted by propaganda, they can be proud of them indeed. I don't think you are here for a productive discourse. It is more likely you are waging a class war here. Please, find another person to preach Marxism to, I come from a country that has suffered greatly from Marxist ideology and the damage was so severe that recovery is still not in sight.
    - littlestymaar 2y ago
      > I don't think you are here for a productive discourse. It is more likely you are waging a class war here. Hey, you're the one who started preaching ideology in that thread, you cannot complain if I do the same afterwards ;). > Please, find another person to preach Marxism to, When you grow up, you'll learn that the world is not black and white, and if you look past the cold war propaganda, there's actually nuance between the two evils that are actual Communism and Liberalism. The only system that actually delivered prosperity anywhere in the world is the Welfare state, and it has nothing to do with Marxism except that it recognizes that unconstrained Capitalism lead to bad outcome (and, in practice, Fascism, more often than not). > I come from a country that has suffered greatly from Marxist ideology and the damage was so severe that recovery is still not in sight. What country is it? The damage from Communism were indeed sever when it lasted, but in most former communists countries, one must not confuse what we're seeing now with the aftermath of Communism, when it's in fact the natural consequences of the new Capitalist order that emerged after its demise.