8 ms·

I wouldn't get your hopes up. Depending on how the final bill is written, simply equipping the vehicle with an AM radio might be enough to satisfy the regulatio

I wouldn't get your hopes up. Depending on how the final bill is written, simply equipping the vehicle with an AM radio might be enough to satisfy the regulation, even if the reception is so poor as to make it almost unusable.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Software defined malicious compliance. “Sure, it can tune to AM. Ticket closed.” Just keep kicking the can until the last ~4k AM stations in the US close.
- giantg2 2y ago
  Aren't there also information and emergency stations run by the state DOTs? I've seen signs to tune to AM stations on roadways.
  - dghlsakjg 2y ago
    They also do it on FM in some places, I don’t think it matters a great deal what band it is in.
    - thsksbd 2y ago
      It matters a great deal. While AM quality sucks, the modulation is more robust than FM and the AM band (specifically as opposed to the modulation) can go much further.
      - ethagnawl 2y ago
        > ... can go much further. I've been exploring the AM dial since this issue first arose a year or two ago. So far, the furthest transmission I've knowingly received was a station in Chicago while I was in NW Connecticut. I've also heard of people in the NE US receiving transmissions from Central America and Europe, especially at night (the sun causes some amount of interference).
        giantg2 2y ago
        On a regular car radio? I think usually the ones coming from other continents are "shortwave", which is also AM.
        ethagnawl 2y ago
        I was using a car radio. The secondhand stories were also about people using car radios. YMMV, of course, but it seems possible: https://www.reddit.com/r/radio/comments/hmmy8l/farthest_am_signal_received/ https://www.reddit.com/r/radio/comments/hmmy8l/farthest_am_s...
        giantg2 2y ago
        Very cool. I didn't think it would get that far.
        thsksbd 2y ago
        Ya, AM. The 1Mhz band is insanely long range (under the right conditions, blah blah). You may protest that you can FM at 1 Mhz and get the range boost on a much nicer sounding signal but: - FM isnt as efficient as AM and 1 Mhz isnt a lot of space - FM "locks in" to a station, partially what makes it sound so good. On AM you hear everything and its "up to you" to figure it out; meaning the intended signal is there and you might be able to squeeze meaning out of it (since you know a lot about it). On FM if the receiver cant "lock in" or locks into another station you cant receive any information. That last point is also why morse code is so reliable - a human operator can very easily distinguish a sine in noise
      - dghlsakjg 2y ago
        AM band frequencies has greater range under the right ionospheric conditions. In the event of needing to communicate in an emergency you must assume that the right ionospheric conditions will not be present and that you are limited to line of sight.
        thsksbd 2y ago
        Sure. And you reliably get those range boosting conditions daily.
        dghlsakjg 2y ago
        The point is that anything besides line of sight is unpredictable, so the ability for AM to sometimes reach around the world is irrelevant if you need to know how many people it will reach, which is, more or less the same as FM. In other words: you really don't need the ability to sometimes unreliably broadcast icy road conditions, or a tornado alert, to someone three states away.
lupusreal 2y ago
If the automakers don't care about reception quality, then why oppose this law? Bad reception in their cars will make their cars look bad, if only by a little, which is why they care.
- ultrarunner 2y ago
  I'm here, on this website, reading about the ins and outs of AM reception and considering the effects of mandating the continued existence certain kind of modulation. I also bought a new car recently. In the Venn diagram of people, I'm probably right in all of the tiny overlaps (save for, maybe, concern about current baseball scores). I can't imagine choosing between two cars and picking one because of its AM radio reception. I wouldn't even make a bet that I know if my car can receive AM.
- dagmx 2y ago
  The overlap of people buying an EV and who listen to AM radio regularly enough to care is going to be minuscule. I’d even hazard that once EVs are mandated. Between the standard AM radio content and the availability of better options like streamed audio, I just don’t see people caring. Until and unless an emergency does happen, in which case, they’d have to actively know to tune in (unlikely) and have to not want to pull over to listen. They’d also have to be in a situation where the other emergency broadcast tools on their phones don’t work. I just don’t see it being anything that any number of consumers would care about, beyond the standard number of outliers that are usually accounted for.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    The car manufacturer lobbying evidences them caring.
    - dagmx 2y ago
      Do they care about the brand damage or the need to factor it into their product with hardware/software? I think the latter is significantly more likely.
iancmceachern 2y ago
It's not about the radio in the car. It's about the required FCC testing, specifically radiated emissions. It's about what spectrums they check new devices at during that testing to be sure they don't interfere. If they stop checking at those frequencies because we stop making AM radios then we have the potential to loose the ability for even pre existing AM radios to work because all kinds of things will be unintentionally broadcasting in those spectrums.
ranger_danger 2y ago
You should be a lawyer.
dylan604 2y ago
If the car companies are fighting this in this manner, they must be receiving enough complaints from users with the poor reception issues so that this is the maker's solution.
Ekaros 2y ago
Operates only when car is booted in special mode where all other electronics are shutdown.. Seems reasonable and smart solution.
giantg2 2y ago
Wouldn't that technically lemon law the vehicle - repeated service for the same non-correctable issue?
- hunter2_ 2y ago
  I guess the workaround would be that it only lets you tune AM while stopped. Ridiculous on the surface, but for receiving emergency information, pulling over first isn't entirely out of the question.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    "pulling over first isn't entirely out of the question." It seems it would be for most situations. If it's emergency info, everyone would need to hear it. Most roads either don't have a shoulder (rural, semi rural), or have too high of a volume for the shoulder to handle all the traffic (multilane highways, city streets). Even if the stops were temporary, you'd end up with massive traffic jams that would likely make any emergency worse. But I don't think the lemon law allows for work around anyways - you bought a car that is (will be) required by law to have AM radio, and that feature does not function when driving the car.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Software defined malicious compliance. “Sure, it can tune to AM. Ticket closed.” Just keep kicking the can until the last ~4k AM stations in the US close.

giantg2 2y ago
Aren't there also information and emergency stations run by the state DOTs? I've seen signs to tune to AM stations on roadways.
- dghlsakjg 2y ago
  They also do it on FM in some places, I don’t think it matters a great deal what band it is in.
  - thsksbd 2y ago
    It matters a great deal. While AM quality sucks, the modulation is more robust than FM and the AM band (specifically as opposed to the modulation) can go much further.
    - ethagnawl 2y ago
      > ... can go much further. I've been exploring the AM dial since this issue first arose a year or two ago. So far, the furthest transmission I've knowingly received was a station in Chicago while I was in NW Connecticut. I've also heard of people in the NE US receiving transmissions from Central America and Europe, especially at night (the sun causes some amount of interference).
      - giantg2 2y ago
        On a regular car radio? I think usually the ones coming from other continents are "shortwave", which is also AM.
        ethagnawl 2y ago
        I was using a car radio. The secondhand stories were also about people using car radios. YMMV, of course, but it seems possible: https://www.reddit.com/r/radio/comments/hmmy8l/farthest_am_signal_received/ https://www.reddit.com/r/radio/comments/hmmy8l/farthest_am_s...
        giantg2 2y ago
        Very cool. I didn't think it would get that far.
        thsksbd 2y ago
        Ya, AM. The 1Mhz band is insanely long range (under the right conditions, blah blah). You may protest that you can FM at 1 Mhz and get the range boost on a much nicer sounding signal but: - FM isnt as efficient as AM and 1 Mhz isnt a lot of space - FM "locks in" to a station, partially what makes it sound so good. On AM you hear everything and its "up to you" to figure it out; meaning the intended signal is there and you might be able to squeeze meaning out of it (since you know a lot about it). On FM if the receiver cant "lock in" or locks into another station you cant receive any information. That last point is also why morse code is so reliable - a human operator can very easily distinguish a sine in noise
    - dghlsakjg 2y ago
      AM band frequencies has greater range under the right ionospheric conditions. In the event of needing to communicate in an emergency you must assume that the right ionospheric conditions will not be present and that you are limited to line of sight.
      - thsksbd 2y ago
        Sure. And you reliably get those range boosting conditions daily.
        dghlsakjg 2y ago
        The point is that anything besides line of sight is unpredictable, so the ability for AM to sometimes reach around the world is irrelevant if you need to know how many people it will reach, which is, more or less the same as FM. In other words: you really don't need the ability to sometimes unreliably broadcast icy road conditions, or a tornado alert, to someone three states away.

lupusreal 2y ago

If the automakers don't care about reception quality, then why oppose this law? Bad reception in their cars will make their cars look bad, if only by a little, which is why they care.

ultrarunner 2y ago
I'm here, on this website, reading about the ins and outs of AM reception and considering the effects of mandating the continued existence certain kind of modulation. I also bought a new car recently. In the Venn diagram of people, I'm probably right in all of the tiny overlaps (save for, maybe, concern about current baseball scores). I can't imagine choosing between two cars and picking one because of its AM radio reception. I wouldn't even make a bet that I know if my car can receive AM.
dagmx 2y ago
The overlap of people buying an EV and who listen to AM radio regularly enough to care is going to be minuscule. I’d even hazard that once EVs are mandated. Between the standard AM radio content and the availability of better options like streamed audio, I just don’t see people caring. Until and unless an emergency does happen, in which case, they’d have to actively know to tune in (unlikely) and have to not want to pull over to listen. They’d also have to be in a situation where the other emergency broadcast tools on their phones don’t work. I just don’t see it being anything that any number of consumers would care about, beyond the standard number of outliers that are usually accounted for.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  The car manufacturer lobbying evidences them caring.
  - dagmx 2y ago
    Do they care about the brand damage or the need to factor it into their product with hardware/software? I think the latter is significantly more likely.

iancmceachern 2y ago

It's not about the radio in the car. It's about the required FCC testing, specifically radiated emissions. It's about what spectrums they check new devices at during that testing to be sure they don't interfere. If they stop checking at those frequencies because we stop making AM radios then we have the potential to loose the ability for even pre existing AM radios to work because all kinds of things will be unintentionally broadcasting in those spectrums.

ranger_danger 2y ago

You should be a lawyer.

dylan604 2y ago

If the car companies are fighting this in this manner, they must be receiving enough complaints from users with the poor reception issues so that this is the maker's solution.

Ekaros 2y ago

Operates only when car is booted in special mode where all other electronics are shutdown.. Seems reasonable and smart solution.

giantg2 2y ago

Wouldn't that technically lemon law the vehicle - repeated service for the same non-correctable issue?

hunter2_ 2y ago
I guess the workaround would be that it only lets you tune AM while stopped. Ridiculous on the surface, but for receiving emergency information, pulling over first isn't entirely out of the question.
- giantg2 2y ago
  "pulling over first isn't entirely out of the question." It seems it would be for most situations. If it's emergency info, everyone would need to hear it. Most roads either don't have a shoulder (rural, semi rural), or have too high of a volume for the shoulder to handle all the traffic (multilane highways, city streets). Even if the stops were temporary, you'd end up with massive traffic jams that would likely make any emergency worse. But I don't think the lemon law allows for work around anyways - you bought a car that is (will be) required by law to have AM radio, and that feature does not function when driving the car.