7 ms·

Youtube for folks who prefer not to click twitter links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hOK7bU0S1Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hOK7bU0S1Y

drooopy 2y ago
I have some very basic understanding of greek, so I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But the way that they pronounce (sing) diphthongs is not quite right and I feel that makes the song sound... rougher somehow.
- titanomachy 2y ago
  They are also probably trying to reproduce Ancient Greek pronunciation, which treats diphthongs differently. I believe in Ancient Greek the sounds were pronounced closer to how they are spelled, and the collapse into diphthongs happened later (nt -> d, mp -> b, ai -> e, etc.).
  - verisimi 2y ago
    No one knows, nor could they ever know.
    - swatcoder 2y ago
      To some degree that's true, to some degree it's not. Given enough of the right samples and their context, you can make strong informed guesses about pronunciation from how words are used in structured samples like poetry/plays that embed rhythm, rhyme, etc in established ways; from patterns in the way words shift over time; etc There are quite a lot of signals you can feel confident drawing from, but of course you can't get to 100% accuracy even if you had perfect insight or even heard the word spoken because pronunciation does still vary by individual, family, community, context, etc I don't know what's right here myself or how established the consensus is around what might be right, but the discussion you're responding to isn't frivolous or unreasonable on its face.
      - verisimi 2y ago
        Consensus has nothing to do with how one can know what things sounded like 2000 years ago, when we have no means to verify anything. The consensus might be bang on. Or it might be wildly wrong. Or something else. Who can say? My point is a pretty straightforward one. To say you have knowledge of a thing, you need to be able to personally verify whatever-it-is. I can personally verify I'm sitting in a chair. I can never verify that music sounded like that 2000 years ago, cos I was not there. I can read a book that describes the sound, but that still doesn't mean I can verify it! "We" cannot know a thing - there may be a consensus opinion (the wisdom of crowds and all that) - it might be a good guess - but this is not knowledge. And can never be. This doesn't take away from the fun endeavour though. If you want to recreate sounds from the descriptions given in text, go ahead - I'll listen to it.
        scrollaway 2y ago
        This mindset is what gives us flat earthers and moon landing deniers. “Can’t check myself, so it’s false and science is bullshit”.
        verisimi 2y ago
        Its actually logic. There really are some things that cannot be known. It is valuable and useful to distinguish between belief/hypothesis and knowledge. The worst thing, imo, is to believe that one knows when one is a state of belief - this is the curiosity killer.
        jhanschoo 2y ago
        > Consensus has nothing to do with how one can know what things sounded like 2000 years ago, when we have no means to verify anything. The consensus might be bang on. Or it might be wildly wrong. Or something else. Who can say? Neither can a person who has never left the US who realistically would not visit France verify whether they are speaking French as is spoken in Marseilles. Yet the effort to approximate it is not futile, and having practiced with a native French speaker from Marseilles to the point of fluency is usually proof enough for many to say that they know French as is spoken in Marseilles, even though it seems to me that you would not regard this as knowledge.
    - baruz 2y ago
      There is plenty of evidence, well documented, of how ancient Greek languages, and Attic in particular, sounded. Transliterations of Latin, Egyptian, Persian names, and words taken from other languages, and Latin transliterations of Greek names and words. Non-orthographic spellings and misspellings. Rhymes and the preservation of supersegmental qualities in poetry. Grammarians describing in detail how likely barbarians were to mispronounce certain words and how to best pronounce words. There's more to learn, but it's not unknowable.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- jb1991 2y ago
  > the way that they pronounce (sing) diphthongs is not quite right I find it amusing that you say you have a “very basic understanding“ of Greek and then judge whether a team from Oxford who has been studying this for many years is pronouncing it correctly.
dang 2y ago
Thanks! we've changed the URL to that from https://twitter.com/classicstudies/status/1652226935718658051 https://twitter.com/classicstudies/status/165222693571865805... above.
- galaxyofdoom 2y ago
  [dead]
- bboygravity 2y ago
  Thanks for the original link, X videos load way faster and with less bloat than Youtube videos for me.
  - system2 2y ago
    Don't you use adblockers?
- JPKab 2y ago
  Are Twitter links discouraged on HN?
  - dang 2y ago
    That's not why I changed the current URL. As for Twitter links in general - it's a mess right now. A lot of significant content only exists in that form, so I wouldn't go so far as to say they're discouraged; but it's good to check if a better / more accessible source with the same information is available.

drooopy 2y ago

I have some very basic understanding of greek, so I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But the way that they pronounce (sing) diphthongs is not quite right and I feel that makes the song sound... rougher somehow.

titanomachy 2y ago
They are also probably trying to reproduce Ancient Greek pronunciation, which treats diphthongs differently. I believe in Ancient Greek the sounds were pronounced closer to how they are spelled, and the collapse into diphthongs happened later (nt -> d, mp -> b, ai -> e, etc.).
- verisimi 2y ago
  No one knows, nor could they ever know.
  - swatcoder 2y ago
    To some degree that's true, to some degree it's not. Given enough of the right samples and their context, you can make strong informed guesses about pronunciation from how words are used in structured samples like poetry/plays that embed rhythm, rhyme, etc in established ways; from patterns in the way words shift over time; etc There are quite a lot of signals you can feel confident drawing from, but of course you can't get to 100% accuracy even if you had perfect insight or even heard the word spoken because pronunciation does still vary by individual, family, community, context, etc I don't know what's right here myself or how established the consensus is around what might be right, but the discussion you're responding to isn't frivolous or unreasonable on its face.
    - verisimi 2y ago
      Consensus has nothing to do with how one can know what things sounded like 2000 years ago, when we have no means to verify anything. The consensus might be bang on. Or it might be wildly wrong. Or something else. Who can say? My point is a pretty straightforward one. To say you have knowledge of a thing, you need to be able to personally verify whatever-it-is. I can personally verify I'm sitting in a chair. I can never verify that music sounded like that 2000 years ago, cos I was not there. I can read a book that describes the sound, but that still doesn't mean I can verify it! "We" cannot know a thing - there may be a consensus opinion (the wisdom of crowds and all that) - it might be a good guess - but this is not knowledge. And can never be. This doesn't take away from the fun endeavour though. If you want to recreate sounds from the descriptions given in text, go ahead - I'll listen to it.
      - scrollaway 2y ago
        This mindset is what gives us flat earthers and moon landing deniers. “Can’t check myself, so it’s false and science is bullshit”.
        verisimi 2y ago
        Its actually logic. There really are some things that cannot be known. It is valuable and useful to distinguish between belief/hypothesis and knowledge. The worst thing, imo, is to believe that one knows when one is a state of belief - this is the curiosity killer.
      - jhanschoo 2y ago
        > Consensus has nothing to do with how one can know what things sounded like 2000 years ago, when we have no means to verify anything. The consensus might be bang on. Or it might be wildly wrong. Or something else. Who can say? Neither can a person who has never left the US who realistically would not visit France verify whether they are speaking French as is spoken in Marseilles. Yet the effort to approximate it is not futile, and having practiced with a native French speaker from Marseilles to the point of fluency is usually proof enough for many to say that they know French as is spoken in Marseilles, even though it seems to me that you would not regard this as knowledge.
  - baruz 2y ago
    There is plenty of evidence, well documented, of how ancient Greek languages, and Attic in particular, sounded. Transliterations of Latin, Egyptian, Persian names, and words taken from other languages, and Latin transliterations of Greek names and words. Non-orthographic spellings and misspellings. Rhymes and the preservation of supersegmental qualities in poetry. Grammarians describing in detail how likely barbarians were to mispronounce certain words and how to best pronounce words. There's more to learn, but it's not unknowable.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
jb1991 2y ago
> the way that they pronounce (sing) diphthongs is not quite right I find it amusing that you say you have a “very basic understanding“ of Greek and then judge whether a team from Oxford who has been studying this for many years is pronouncing it correctly.

dang 2y ago

Thanks! we've changed the URL to that from https://twitter.com/classicstudies/status/1652226935718658051 https://twitter.com/classicstudies/status/165222693571865805... above.

galaxyofdoom 2y ago
[dead]
bboygravity 2y ago
Thanks for the original link, X videos load way faster and with less bloat than Youtube videos for me.
- system2 2y ago
  Don't you use adblockers?
JPKab 2y ago
Are Twitter links discouraged on HN?
- dang 2y ago
  That's not why I changed the current URL. As for Twitter links in general - it's a mess right now. A lot of significant content only exists in that form, so I wouldn't go so far as to say they're discouraged; but it's good to check if a better / more accessible source with the same information is available.