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I am not making a criticism, I am asking a question. I already know about plan 9, I don't need to "check it out". I would like to know how I can actually use

I am not making a criticism, I am asking a question. I already know about plan 9, I don't need to "check it out". I would like to know how I can actually use it for something, rather than just play with it for a couple hours and go "yeah ok, that was cool".

lubutu 14y ago
It very much depends on what you want to do. But yes, you can certainly do things with Plan 9. Ruling out Plan 9 because it does run a certain language, or doesn't run Postgres, is like ruling out Linux because it can't run Microsoft Office. It is intended for a different purpose. Also note that Coraid use Plan 9 in a lot of their systems, to do real work (specifically SANs). Edit: Also, Plan 9 has HTTP servers, CIFS support, central authentication (factotum), etc. I suggest you Google them.
- papsosouid 14y ago
  I gave a list of things I want to do. The typical server stuff 99% of unix-like systems are used for. I am not ruling out plan 9, I am asking what it can be used for. Why do people keep insisting on deliberately misrepresenting a question as a criticism? I know plan 9 has factotum, but "google it" sure doesn't help me find a way to use it to authenticate windows clients. Or authenticate anything other than plan 9 for that matter. Aquarela doesn't even claim to work, and it is actually much worse in practice than it claims to be. And it can't be part of a domain can it? I'm not trying to be critical here, but when I ask "what can I actually do with plan 9?" I am genuinely interested in a serious answer. Stuff like "well there's an unsupported kinda buggy thing that doesn't actually do what you need anyways" is just a less honest way of saying "you can't use it for anything".
  - tedunangst 14y ago
    You can play with it. You can write little programs and compile them. You can poke around its everything is a file filesystem. Your question is like "what can I do with a slinkie?"
    - papsosouid 14y ago
      Even openbsd can do more than that! (are you even still involved with openbsd?). Seriously though, people keep acting like plan 9 is a practical alternative to a unix-like system, and I would love for that to be true. So, I am asking for someone to show me how I can use it that way. If those people are full of it, that's an ok answer. But it isn't my fault people are offering up the slinky as an alternative when someone complains their xbox 360 rrod'ed.
      - tedunangst 14y ago
        I don't think people are suggesting plan9 is a practical alternative. They're just saying it's worth studying and understanding. If people advocate using plan9, it's because understanding comes from experience.
        papsosouid 14y ago
        I took dexen's original post to be suggesting it as a practical alternative. Reading it over again, it still looks like he is suggesting it as a practical alternative. Perhaps he was being sarcastic and I missed the point.
        tedunangst 14y ago
        He's saying if you want to see what real unix looks like, look at plan9. There's nothing in his post to suggest real unix is useful. :)
  - lubutu 14y ago
    As I said, Coraid uses it for SANs. The question you're asking is equivalent to "Windows can play games, why doesn't Linux have any games?" Some of the things you might do with Unix Plan 9 cannot do. However, the reverse is also true. You seem to seem to be looking for "an alternative to Unix." If that is the case, Plan 9 probably isn't what you're looking for. It is, however, useful in ways that Unix is not. It probably won't replace your specific Unix needs, though it largely replaces mine. Hope that clears that up.
    - papsosouid 14y ago
      Except I asked the question in response to someone offering up plan 9 as though it were an alternative to modern unix-like systems. Taking the question out of context will inevitably make your response pointless. If someone said "windows crashes too much when I am playing games" and someone else said "linux never crashes" in response, then it would be perfectly reasonable to expect the linux guy to explain how to play games on linux. Since plan 9 largely replaces your unixy needs, could you share with me what those needs are, so I can try to get a better idea of what I might be able to use it for. I am not looking for an alternative to unix, I am looking for any practical way I can put plan 9 to use, rather than just tinkering with it on an old spare machine for fun.
calinet6 14y ago
I think this is a more astute observation than people are giving you credit for. UNIX grew to the complexity it has because it was meant to be used. Plan 9 is not used because it was not allowed to acquire useful constructs. This parting ways with "the UNIX way" was necessary and complete in order for the system to become what it is today. Some things could be improved and made more proper and UNIXy, but for the most part it's an incredibly useful and functional system. The OP article is spot-on with this realization. In other words, the ideal UNIX (for example, Plan 9) can't compete in the real world, because the concepts behind it (the UNIX way) don't actually compete in the real world. It's based on a set of very interesting, very elegant, and mostly false precepts.
batista 14y ago
>I am not making a criticism, I am asking a question. I already know about plan 9, I don't need to "check it out". I would like to know how I can actually use it for something, rather than just play with it for a couple hours and go "yeah ok, that was cool". If you "know about it", then you would also now that you cannot use it for something like the things you mention. I cannot see how your questions are compatible with "knowing about it". Even its developers doesn't use it now --although they have ported their favorite userland tools from it to other systems.
- papsosouid 14y ago
  Have you tried reading my post? I said that as far as I am aware, you can't use it for any of those things, but that I could be mistaken. Ignoring what I said, to tell me what I said is stupid isn't productive or helpful.
dmm 14y ago
> I am not making a criticism I did not interpret your post as a criticism. Why do you think I did? > I would like to know how I can actually use it for something You can use it as a source of ideas for implementing operating system and network services. That may not be useful for you, but everyone is not like you. Others have found it useful to use directly(coraid).
- papsosouid 14y ago
  I mainly think you did because of you saying you did: "You're missing the point if your criticism of it is that it doesn't run your favorite database."

lubutu 14y ago

It very much depends on what you want to do. But yes, you can certainly do things with Plan 9. Ruling out Plan 9 because it does run a certain language, or doesn't run Postgres, is like ruling out Linux because it can't run Microsoft Office. It is intended for a different purpose. Also note that Coraid use Plan 9 in a lot of their systems, to do real work (specifically SANs). Edit: Also, Plan 9 has HTTP servers, CIFS support, central authentication (factotum), etc. I suggest you Google them.

papsosouid 14y ago
I gave a list of things I want to do. The typical server stuff 99% of unix-like systems are used for. I am not ruling out plan 9, I am asking what it can be used for. Why do people keep insisting on deliberately misrepresenting a question as a criticism? I know plan 9 has factotum, but "google it" sure doesn't help me find a way to use it to authenticate windows clients. Or authenticate anything other than plan 9 for that matter. Aquarela doesn't even claim to work, and it is actually much worse in practice than it claims to be. And it can't be part of a domain can it? I'm not trying to be critical here, but when I ask "what can I actually do with plan 9?" I am genuinely interested in a serious answer. Stuff like "well there's an unsupported kinda buggy thing that doesn't actually do what you need anyways" is just a less honest way of saying "you can't use it for anything".
- tedunangst 14y ago
  You can play with it. You can write little programs and compile them. You can poke around its everything is a file filesystem. Your question is like "what can I do with a slinkie?"
  - papsosouid 14y ago
    Even openbsd can do more than that! (are you even still involved with openbsd?). Seriously though, people keep acting like plan 9 is a practical alternative to a unix-like system, and I would love for that to be true. So, I am asking for someone to show me how I can use it that way. If those people are full of it, that's an ok answer. But it isn't my fault people are offering up the slinky as an alternative when someone complains their xbox 360 rrod'ed.
    - tedunangst 14y ago
      I don't think people are suggesting plan9 is a practical alternative. They're just saying it's worth studying and understanding. If people advocate using plan9, it's because understanding comes from experience.
      - papsosouid 14y ago
        I took dexen's original post to be suggesting it as a practical alternative. Reading it over again, it still looks like he is suggesting it as a practical alternative. Perhaps he was being sarcastic and I missed the point.
        tedunangst 14y ago
        He's saying if you want to see what real unix looks like, look at plan9. There's nothing in his post to suggest real unix is useful. :)
- lubutu 14y ago
  As I said, Coraid uses it for SANs. The question you're asking is equivalent to "Windows can play games, why doesn't Linux have any games?" Some of the things you might do with Unix Plan 9 cannot do. However, the reverse is also true. You seem to seem to be looking for "an alternative to Unix." If that is the case, Plan 9 probably isn't what you're looking for. It is, however, useful in ways that Unix is not. It probably won't replace your specific Unix needs, though it largely replaces mine. Hope that clears that up.
  - papsosouid 14y ago
    Except I asked the question in response to someone offering up plan 9 as though it were an alternative to modern unix-like systems. Taking the question out of context will inevitably make your response pointless. If someone said "windows crashes too much when I am playing games" and someone else said "linux never crashes" in response, then it would be perfectly reasonable to expect the linux guy to explain how to play games on linux. Since plan 9 largely replaces your unixy needs, could you share with me what those needs are, so I can try to get a better idea of what I might be able to use it for. I am not looking for an alternative to unix, I am looking for any practical way I can put plan 9 to use, rather than just tinkering with it on an old spare machine for fun.

calinet6 14y ago

I think this is a more astute observation than people are giving you credit for. UNIX grew to the complexity it has because it was meant to be used. Plan 9 is not used because it was not allowed to acquire useful constructs. This parting ways with "the UNIX way" was necessary and complete in order for the system to become what it is today. Some things could be improved and made more proper and UNIXy, but for the most part it's an incredibly useful and functional system. The OP article is spot-on with this realization. In other words, the ideal UNIX (for example, Plan 9) can't compete in the real world, because the concepts behind it (the UNIX way) don't actually compete in the real world. It's based on a set of very interesting, very elegant, and mostly false precepts.

batista 14y ago

>I am not making a criticism, I am asking a question. I already know about plan 9, I don't need to "check it out". I would like to know how I can actually use it for something, rather than just play with it for a couple hours and go "yeah ok, that was cool". If you "know about it", then you would also now that you cannot use it for something like the things you mention. I cannot see how your questions are compatible with "knowing about it". Even its developers doesn't use it now --although they have ported their favorite userland tools from it to other systems.

papsosouid 14y ago
Have you tried reading my post? I said that as far as I am aware, you can't use it for any of those things, but that I could be mistaken. Ignoring what I said, to tell me what I said is stupid isn't productive or helpful.

dmm 14y ago

> I am not making a criticism I did not interpret your post as a criticism. Why do you think I did? > I would like to know how I can actually use it for something You can use it as a source of ideas for implementing operating system and network services. That may not be useful for you, but everyone is not like you. Others have found it useful to use directly(coraid).

papsosouid 14y ago
I mainly think you did because of you saying you did: "You're missing the point if your criticism of it is that it doesn't run your favorite database."