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I hate, so much, when people refer to jobs as voluntary cooperation. Maybe at the very top when you have more money than you’ll ever need, but for the vast maj

I hate, so much, when people refer to jobs as voluntary cooperation. Maybe at the very top when you have more money than you’ll ever need, but for the vast majority of people jobs aren’t truly voluntary.

tasuki 2y ago
You won't enjoy my comment then :) Yes, jobs are voluntary. The vast majority of people could choose not to have a job and not to entertain certain luxuries in life like having a roof over one's head or food on the table. Some even (voluntarily!) choose not to have a roof over their head because they don't like the idea of having a job.
- lovich 2y ago
  Food is not a luxury. Defining things necessary for continued existence as luxuries is ridiculously reductive and is why defining jobs as “voluntary” in a world where access to those things is gated by having a job for most people is disingenuous. Taking job A over job B could be described as voluntary but saying that you could just be homeless and scrounge food, especially in locations where the local government makes this illegal, so working is voluntary is just wrong
  - tasuki 2y ago
    You are of course right that food is not a luxury, that was supposed to be slightly tongue in cheek. One can still choose to disobey the local government and be homeless. I'm not saying it's an easy choice, nor am I saying it's easy to be homeless. I'm just saying it's a choice.
- CooCooCaCha 2y ago
  You’re right, I don’t like your comment. It always amazes me how heartless you libertarian types can be. Food and a roof are basics, not a luxury. The fact that a significant number of people in this world don’t have those things speaks more to our failure to provide. Do better.
  - tasuki 2y ago
    I'm actually not a libertarian. I guess I'm your standard European socialist: I'm all good taxing (us) rich and providing for the poor. It still is a choice whether one chooses to work, as evidenced by those who chose not to. Edit: the "luxuries" was slightly tongue in cheek and perhaps didn't land well. Anyway, you're free to move to the wilderness, hunt/grow your own food, build your own shelter, and do without the socio-economic system altogether.
    - CooCooCaCha 2y ago
      You could have fooled me because that is the same immature definition of voluntary and choice that libertarians espouse. Voluntary is not binary. If someone put a gun to your head and told you to eat shit you technically have a choice but it's not much of choice is it?
      - tasuki 2y ago
        > If someone put a gun to your head [...] That would be a rather easy choice to make! We aren't entitled to a roof over head and food etc, that's all I'm saying. We should be grateful when we happen to luck into circumstances (such as a job) that allow us to have roof/food. It's not something everyone has. Saying we were involuntarily forced into having a job/roof/food feels very strange when compared with the people who weren't forced to have either of these three things.
        CooCooCaCha 2y ago
        We are entitled to a roof and food and it’s a tragedy that some people don’t have those things. You’re not being empathetic by saying the opposite, you’re giving assholes with power an excuse to take those things away or make it harder to provide them to people. I don’t understand why you’d say we’re being forced to have food and shelter, that makes no sense. We need food and shelter, which is why employment isn’t voluntary.
        2y ago

tasuki 2y ago

You won't enjoy my comment then :) Yes, jobs are voluntary. The vast majority of people could choose not to have a job and not to entertain certain luxuries in life like having a roof over one's head or food on the table. Some even (voluntarily!) choose not to have a roof over their head because they don't like the idea of having a job.

lovich 2y ago
Food is not a luxury. Defining things necessary for continued existence as luxuries is ridiculously reductive and is why defining jobs as “voluntary” in a world where access to those things is gated by having a job for most people is disingenuous. Taking job A over job B could be described as voluntary but saying that you could just be homeless and scrounge food, especially in locations where the local government makes this illegal, so working is voluntary is just wrong
- tasuki 2y ago
  You are of course right that food is not a luxury, that was supposed to be slightly tongue in cheek. One can still choose to disobey the local government and be homeless. I'm not saying it's an easy choice, nor am I saying it's easy to be homeless. I'm just saying it's a choice.
CooCooCaCha 2y ago
You’re right, I don’t like your comment. It always amazes me how heartless you libertarian types can be. Food and a roof are basics, not a luxury. The fact that a significant number of people in this world don’t have those things speaks more to our failure to provide. Do better.
- tasuki 2y ago
  I'm actually not a libertarian. I guess I'm your standard European socialist: I'm all good taxing (us) rich and providing for the poor. It still is a choice whether one chooses to work, as evidenced by those who chose not to. Edit: the "luxuries" was slightly tongue in cheek and perhaps didn't land well. Anyway, you're free to move to the wilderness, hunt/grow your own food, build your own shelter, and do without the socio-economic system altogether.
  - CooCooCaCha 2y ago
    You could have fooled me because that is the same immature definition of voluntary and choice that libertarians espouse. Voluntary is not binary. If someone put a gun to your head and told you to eat shit you technically have a choice but it's not much of choice is it?
    - tasuki 2y ago
      > If someone put a gun to your head [...] That would be a rather easy choice to make! We aren't entitled to a roof over head and food etc, that's all I'm saying. We should be grateful when we happen to luck into circumstances (such as a job) that allow us to have roof/food. It's not something everyone has. Saying we were involuntarily forced into having a job/roof/food feels very strange when compared with the people who weren't forced to have either of these three things.
      - CooCooCaCha 2y ago
        We are entitled to a roof and food and it’s a tragedy that some people don’t have those things. You’re not being empathetic by saying the opposite, you’re giving assholes with power an excuse to take those things away or make it harder to provide them to people. I don’t understand why you’d say we’re being forced to have food and shelter, that makes no sense. We need food and shelter, which is why employment isn’t voluntary.
        2y ago