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The problem is there is still a limit. There is a reason we have GPUs. I genuinely can't figure out if Apple has a point, or is doing something quirky so they

The problem is there is still a limit. There is a reason we have GPUs. I genuinely can't figure out if Apple has a point, or is doing something quirky so they can overcharge outsiders. Given 0 other companies are really investing resources and Nvidia is the giant, I'd guess its the later. I see too many reddit posts about disappointed CPU LLM users who wanted to run large models.

jsheard 2y ago
> I genuinely can't figure out if Apple has a point, or is doing something quirky so they can overcharge outsiders. Well, Apple was already soldering the memory onto the motherboard in most of their Intel machines, so moving the memory on-package didn't really change their ability to gouge for memory upgrades much. They were already doing that.
faeriechangling 2y ago
Apple using a 512-bit memory bus on its Max processors is indeed the future of APUs if you ask me. AMD is coming out with Strix Halo soon with a 256bit memory bus, on the high end we're also seen the niche ampere platform running Arm CPUs with 576-bit buses. PS5 uses a 256-bit bus and Series X a 320-bit bus, but they're using GDDR instead of DDR which increases costs and latency to optimise for bandwidth but there's no reason you couldn't design a laptop or steam deck that did the same thing. AMD has their MI300X which is using 192gb HBM3 over a 8192-bit bus. I don't think it's just apple going this way, and I do think that more and more of the market is going to be using this unified approach instead of the approach of having a processor and coprocessor separated over a tiny PCIe bus with separate DDR/GDDR memory pools. With portable devices especially, more and more every year I struggle to see how the architecture is justified when I see the battery life benefits of ridding yourself of all this extra hardware. LLM inferencing also creates a nice incentive to go APU because the dual processor architecture tends to result in excessive bandwidth and anemic capacity. Nvidia may be the giant yet if you look at what most gamers actually run on, they run on Apple APUs, Snapdragon APUs, and AMD APUs. PCs with a discrete CPU and separate Nvidia GPUs have become a relatively smaller slice of the market despite that market segment having grown and Nvidia having a stranglehold upon it. The average game developed is not developed to run on a separate CPU and GPU monster beast - they're designed to run on a phone APU - and something like a Max processor is much more powerful than required to run the average game coming out.
- resource_waste 2y ago
  >Nvidia may be the giant yet if you look at what most gamers actually run on, they run on Apple APUs, Snapdragon APUs, and AMD APUs. Wat This is like extremely incorrect. Its Nvidia. Yikes, your technoblabble at the start seemed like smart people talk but the meat and potatoes is off base.
  - ProfessorLayton 2y ago
    Is it incorrect though? Mobile alone is 85B of the 165B market [1], not to mention that Nintendo's Switch is basically an android tablet with a mobile chipset. [1] https://helplama.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/history-of-gaming-industry.png https://helplama.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/history-of-g...
    - sudosysgen 2y ago
      To be fair, an Nvidia mobile chipset. Also, much of mobile gaming isn't exactly pushing the envelope of graphics, especially by revenue.
    - resource_waste 2y ago
      Yes, we arent using mobile gaming as an indicator of GPU growth/performance. This seems like some way to be like 'Well tecknicaklly', to justify some absurd argument that doesnt matter to anyone.
      - ProfessorLayton 2y ago
        >Yes, we arent using mobile gaming as an indicator of GPU growth/performance. Who's "we" because big tech has absolutely been touting GPU gains in their products for a long time now [1], driven by gaming. Top of the line iPhones can do raytracing now, and are getting AAA ports like Resident Evil. In what world is being over half of a 185B industry a technicality?. A lot of these advancements on mobile end up trickling up to their laptop/desktop counterparts (See Apple's M-series), which matters to non-mobile gamers as well. Advancements that wouldn't have happened if the money wasn't there. [1] https://crucialtangent.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/iphone5s-gpu-chart.png https://crucialtangent.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/iphone5s-...

jsheard 2y ago

> I genuinely can't figure out if Apple has a point, or is doing something quirky so they can overcharge outsiders. Well, Apple was already soldering the memory onto the motherboard in most of their Intel machines, so moving the memory on-package didn't really change their ability to gouge for memory upgrades much. They were already doing that.

faeriechangling 2y ago

Apple using a 512-bit memory bus on its Max processors is indeed the future of APUs if you ask me. AMD is coming out with Strix Halo soon with a 256bit memory bus, on the high end we're also seen the niche ampere platform running Arm CPUs with 576-bit buses. PS5 uses a 256-bit bus and Series X a 320-bit bus, but they're using GDDR instead of DDR which increases costs and latency to optimise for bandwidth but there's no reason you couldn't design a laptop or steam deck that did the same thing. AMD has their MI300X which is using 192gb HBM3 over a 8192-bit bus. I don't think it's just apple going this way, and I do think that more and more of the market is going to be using this unified approach instead of the approach of having a processor and coprocessor separated over a tiny PCIe bus with separate DDR/GDDR memory pools. With portable devices especially, more and more every year I struggle to see how the architecture is justified when I see the battery life benefits of ridding yourself of all this extra hardware. LLM inferencing also creates a nice incentive to go APU because the dual processor architecture tends to result in excessive bandwidth and anemic capacity. Nvidia may be the giant yet if you look at what most gamers actually run on, they run on Apple APUs, Snapdragon APUs, and AMD APUs. PCs with a discrete CPU and separate Nvidia GPUs have become a relatively smaller slice of the market despite that market segment having grown and Nvidia having a stranglehold upon it. The average game developed is not developed to run on a separate CPU and GPU monster beast - they're designed to run on a phone APU - and something like a Max processor is much more powerful than required to run the average game coming out.

resource_waste 2y ago
>Nvidia may be the giant yet if you look at what most gamers actually run on, they run on Apple APUs, Snapdragon APUs, and AMD APUs. Wat This is like extremely incorrect. Its Nvidia. Yikes, your technoblabble at the start seemed like smart people talk but the meat and potatoes is off base.
- ProfessorLayton 2y ago
  Is it incorrect though? Mobile alone is 85B of the 165B market [1], not to mention that Nintendo's Switch is basically an android tablet with a mobile chipset. [1] https://helplama.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/history-of-gaming-industry.png https://helplama.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/history-of-g...
  - sudosysgen 2y ago
    To be fair, an Nvidia mobile chipset. Also, much of mobile gaming isn't exactly pushing the envelope of graphics, especially by revenue.
  - resource_waste 2y ago
    Yes, we arent using mobile gaming as an indicator of GPU growth/performance. This seems like some way to be like 'Well tecknicaklly', to justify some absurd argument that doesnt matter to anyone.
    - ProfessorLayton 2y ago
      >Yes, we arent using mobile gaming as an indicator of GPU growth/performance. Who's "we" because big tech has absolutely been touting GPU gains in their products for a long time now [1], driven by gaming. Top of the line iPhones can do raytracing now, and are getting AAA ports like Resident Evil. In what world is being over half of a 185B industry a technicality?. A lot of these advancements on mobile end up trickling up to their laptop/desktop counterparts (See Apple's M-series), which matters to non-mobile gamers as well. Advancements that wouldn't have happened if the money wasn't there. [1] https://crucialtangent.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/iphone5s-gpu-chart.png https://crucialtangent.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/iphone5s-...