4 ms·
Memory bandwidth is the major bottleneck holding iGPUs back, the conventional approach to CPU RAM is absolutely nowhere near fast enough to keep a big GPU fed.
by jsheard 3y ago
Memory bandwidth is the major bottleneck holding iGPUs back, the conventional approach to CPU RAM is absolutely nowhere near fast enough to keep a big GPU fed. I think the only way to break through that barrier is to do what Apple is doing - move all of the memory on-package and, unfortunately, give up the ability to upgrade it yourself.
- ryukafalz 3y agoIf so I would like to see more of what the MNT Reform[0] is doing. You can have your CPU, GPU, and memory all on a single board while still making that board a module in a reusable chassis. There's no reason the rest of the device needs to be scrapped when you upgrade. [0] https://mntre.com/modularity.html https://mntre.com/modularity.html
- gabrielhidasy 3y agoMove some (but not all) memory on package? NUMA is not easy but it's an option.
- resource_waste 3y agoThe problem is there is still a limit. There is a reason we have GPUs. I genuinely can't figure out if Apple has a point, or is doing something quirky so they can overcharge outsiders. Given 0 other companies are really investing resources and Nvidia is the giant, I'd guess its the later. I see too many reddit posts about disappointed CPU LLM users who wanted to run large models.
- jsheard 3y ago> I genuinely can't figure out if Apple has a point, or is doing something quirky so they can overcharge outsiders. Well, Apple was already soldering the memory onto the motherboard in most of their Intel machines, so moving the memory on-package didn't really change their ability to gouge for memory upgrades much. They were already doing that.
- faeriechangling 3y agoApple using a 512-bit memory bus on its Max processors is indeed the future of APUs if you ask me. AMD is coming out with Strix Halo soon with a 256bit memory bus, on the high end we're also seen the niche ampere platform running Arm CPUs with 576-bit buses. PS5 uses a 256-bit bus and Series X a 320-bit bus, but they're using GDDR instead of DDR which increases costs and latency to optimise for bandwidth but there's no reason you couldn't design a laptop or steam deck that did the same thing. AMD has their MI300X which is using 192gb HBM3 over a 8192-bit bus. I don't think it's just apple going this way, and I do think that more and more of the market is going to be using this unified approach instead of the approach of having a processor and coprocessor separated over a tiny PCIe bus with separate DDR/GDDR memory pools. With portable devices especially, more and more every year I struggle to see how the architecture is justified when I see the battery life benefits of ridding yourself of all this extra hardware. LLM inferencing also creates a nice incentive to go APU because the dual processor architecture tends to result in excessive bandwidth and anemic capacity. Nvidia may be the giant yet if you look at what most gamers actually run on, they run on Apple APUs, Snapdragon APUs, and AMD APUs. PCs with a discrete CPU and separate Nvidia GPUs have become a relatively smaller slice of the market despite that market segment having grown and Nvidia having a stranglehold upon it. The average game developed is not developed to run on a separate CPU and GPU monster beast - they're designed to run on a phone APU - and something like a Max processor is much more powerful than required to run the average game coming out.
- resource_waste 3y ago>Nvidia may be the giant yet if you look at what most gamers actually run on, they run on Apple APUs, Snapdragon APUs, and AMD APUs. Wat This is like extremely incorrect. Its Nvidia. Yikes, your technoblabble at the start seemed like smart people talk but the meat and potatoes is off base.
- ProfessorLayton 3y agoIs it incorrect though? Mobile alone is 85B of the 165B market [1], not to mention that Nintendo's Switch is basically an android tablet with a mobile chipset. [1] https://helplama.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/history-of-gaming-industry.png https://helplama.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/history-of-g...
- 15155 3y agoI would rather be in a world where we have skilled hot-air rework shops in major cities (like Shenzhen has) that can cheaply do this upgrade. The speed of light isn't changing, nor is EMI. Upgradability is directly at odds with high-speed, RF-like, timing-sensitive protocols. "Planned obsolescence!!!" - no: electrical reality.
- bluGill 3y agoThe upgrade would be replace the iGPU including the memory on board. Upgrades are not really environmentally good. They might be the best compromise, but the parts you take off still are discarded.
- 15155 3y agoWhy are they discarded?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- throwaway11460 3y agoBut it's still better than discarding the whole thing, isn't it?
- paulmd 3y agoWhy discard anything at all? If the laptop is sufficiently durable it should be able to endure multiple owners over its functional lifespan.
- throwuxiytayq 3y agoIt often takes a very slight upgrade to give the hardware a whole new life. Plenty of macbooks with 8GB of RAM out there.
- talldayo 3y agoWell one day the SSD will fail, and then your options are as follows: 1) reflow the board with a steady hand 2) bin it The overwhelming majority of customers will not choose option 1.
- doctorpangloss 3y agoI am pretty sure cooling is holding back performance on iPhones and other cellphones though. It throttles after about 5m of typical high end 3D gameplay. That’s how it can be much faster than a Switch including using faster RAM than it but not really useful as a game console.
- papruapap 3y agoI dont think. AMD is releasing a 256b width soon, we will how it performs.