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Silk Helped the Armies of Genghis Khan Conquer Asia
- m3kw9 2y agoWars were exponentially more brutal the further back you went
- hinkley 2y agoPeople putting poop or muck on musket balls to cause sepsis.
- thriftwy 2y agoI wonder what's the payout for individual soldier to do this to have somebody die after the battle has already ended with win or loss.
- KineticLensman 2y agoIt takes the opponent out of the next battle which in a long campaign might improve your chances of getting home alive
- hinkley 2y agoIt also consumes noncombatants. And it’s psi ops. Wars end when the enemy loses heart, not sons.
- Mainan_Tagonist 2y agoIt mobilises a number of resources to patch up a wounded/sick soldier. There is a myth that the 5.56 round was designed to wound and not to kill (contrary to the 7.62 round the soviet side used) as it would make war costly in a very visible manner. I guess the idea that inducing "Sepsis by poop" follows the same line of thinking.
- 082349872349872 2y agoI think it originated with pooping on swords/polearms: you're a peasant, just before the battle, and you have a massive adrenaline dump, part of which involves clearing out the intestines, so if you manage to channel your inner cat, as you barely get your breeches off you stick your weapon underneath. Then you tell all your buddies you totally just did that on purpose, to cause sepsis among the enemy... If you're an grizzled noncom equivalent, when the newbies suddenly wind up with a fresh pile of squishy goop, you tell them the same story, and have them run their weapons through it, making them feel better about having squatted down in front of their buddies? Lagniappe: how about this as a way to take physiological signs of adrenaline and turn them into an "I meant to do that" moment? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_rotEpFtZU&t=64s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_rotEpFtZU&t=64s
- rightbyte 2y agoDid they really understand the link between poo and sickness? Sounds more like some sort of insult to me.
- csours 2y agoMore personal, smaller scale, but many more individual conflicts per capita
- bee_rider 2y agoIDK, WW1 sounds like a pretty bad time. Fighting the modern US would be also be some sort of bizarre existential dread, knowing that every move you make is probably tracked and you have a decent chance of being killed with absolutely no warning.
- fire_lake 2y agoMost likely way to die or become an amputee in modern war is being hit by artillery out of nowhere. There’s no glory in that so recruiters don’t talk about it much.
- dragonelite 2y agoIf one thing the Russo-Ukrainian war footage has though me is that scouting drones plus artillery has given both sides big impact sniper rifles.
- throwaway6734 2y agoive been thinking that down the line both of these would be moved to space
- dragonelite 2y agoFor Russia, China and US yeah i think you are right, for the rest scout drones will do. Another interesting innovation i saw the Russia making was controlling drones by fiber optic wire to defeat anti drone EW. Im sure Ukraine is doing the same.
- jimbob45 2y agoFighting the modern US would be also be some sort of bizarre existential dread, knowing that every move you make is probably tracked and you have a decent chance of being killed with absolutely no warning. Legends of the Galactic Heroes did a great job exploring that theme.
- indymike 2y ago
- jcranmer 2y agoExponentially? Not really. In pre-state societies, we generally seem to see around a 15% chance of dying due to warfare in your lifetime. Early states seem to see that fall to around mid-high single digits. And this decreases to tiny fractions in modern times, but mostly because warfare has declined rather than wars becoming less deadly. Brutal episodes of war--say the Eastern Front on WW2 or some of the theaters in modern wars--can see overall death rates of up to 20 or 30% of people involved. Given that the amount of people involved in military action has generally decreased (pre-state societies generally mobilize their entire military age male population as warriors, modern industrial states... don't), this suggests that ancient warfare is approximately as brutal as even lopsided modern warfare.
- robertlagrant 2y agoThere's a difference between "young men killed on the battlefield" and "everyone else also being killed" - while (sadly) the latter did happen, e.g. Hiroshima, or as Russian troops swept through Germany, or Dresden, it wasn't par for the course or expected as what happens after the losing side lost.
- bitcurious 2y agoThe Soviets* pretty clearly did not kill all of the civilians in Germany, nor did they attempt to. Unlike the Germans themselves, who exterminated whole towns and had a plan that involved total genocide of their conquered peoples. Pretty wild to miss such an obvious example. *really neither the sins nor the wins in WWII belong exclusively to the Russians. Another subtlety misleading aspect of this post.
- robertlagrant 2y ago> really neither the sins nor the wins in WWII belong exclusively to the Russians. Another subtlety misleading aspect of this post I didn't mention any wins. As for the sins: did you get that despite my listing something the British did and something the Americans did?
- paleotrope 2y agoThis was really hard to read. Some component of silk provided some sort of health benefit.
- resolutebat 2y ago1) Silk is woven finely enough that it's surprisingly resistant to arrows. 2) A chemical compound in silk called sericin is naturally antibiotic and acts as a wound coagulant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sericin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sericin
- rawgabbit 2y agoVideo of Traditional Mongolian Cavalry performing Horseback Archery by Namnaa Academy archers. https://youtu.be/qzTaYvMmNYU?si=e-BiruFuNRm6Bzqr https://youtu.be/qzTaYvMmNYU?si=e-BiruFuNRm6Bzqr
- redandblack 2y agoSilk vests were the secret armor of the mongols against arrows.
- js98 2y agoGood story, but the writing is annoyingly tough to follow.
- cbsmith 2y agoI thought it was all because of a genetic mutation that allowed them to digest milk... https://annemontgomerywriter.com/2022/02/11/the-power-of-milk-who-knew/#:~:text=It%20seems%20that%20Genghis%20and,Europe%20in%20a%20relative%20flash https://annemontgomerywriter.com/2022/02/11/the-power-of-mil....
- JPKab 2y agoThe article you linked to is highly unscientific and inaccurate. Lactose tolerance emerged 5,000 years ago in Europe. It wasn't brought to Europe via Mongols. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2022/07/dairy-lactose-intolerance-causes/670966/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2022/07/dairy-la...
- cbsmith 2y agoSorry if it was implied that I thought it was scientific or accurate. My comment was intended to be sarcastic. Every now and then people drag out these weird, "this is why Genghis Khan was so successful" stories.
- vasco 2y agoGuess what, there wasn't a single reason and it was a multitude of reasons and whoever tells you they found the main contributing factor is more likely to just want more attention than they'd get with a more mild version like "this contributed to it".
- shermantanktop 2y agoWell that doesn’t sound like snackable infotainment. I prefer my factoids to be context-free and ready for me to misremember in two years.
- cbsmith 2y agoYup.
- pdevr 2y agoThe story starts with Genghis Khan's plunder of Merv and the mass murder that was ordered by him. It mentions the artisans who were kept alive. Then it swerves to the plunder of Merv by the Oghuz, continues in the next paragraph, and then returns to Genghis Khan by announcing his death. Again, it returns to the artisans,but mid-paragraph (as is typical in that article), switches to battles again, and returns yet again to silk and artisans. At last, it connects the battles and the silk together. This is probably why it appears very hard to read. Especially, the mid-paragraph context switches continuing to the subsequent paragraph. Nevertheless , a fascinating read.
- zeristor 2y agoI was reading up on Wootz steel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel And found that Merv was a big producer of it. I had not heard of the city of Merv, seemingly at one point it had ranked as the second largest in the world, and became more fascinated. Although now just ruins, it has inspired a board game: Merv: The Heart of the Silk Road (2020) https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/306040/merv-the-heart-of-the-silk-road https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/306040/merv-the-heart-of... “Merv: The Heart of the Silk Road is a tense economic game charting the rise and fall of the greatest city in the world. In Merv, players are vying to amass power and wealth in the prosperous heart of the Silk Road. Through careful court intrigue, timely donations to the grand mosque, and favorable trade deals, players attempt to redirect as much of that prosperity as possible into their own pockets. Meanwhile, beyond the city walls Mongol hordes approach. If you help construct the city walls, you give up on precious opportunities to build up your own stature, but leave it unprotected and you will burn with the city. Every decision is weighty and the consequences of each misstep are dire. Will you rise to prominence or fade into oblivion?” Edit: expanded details of board game reference.
- jajko 2y agoIts a sad story, they were at the global pinnacle of science and arts, opened their gates to mongols without any resistance, only to be still slaughtered like cattle. Imagine how much additional positive influence on current world, how differently middle east region would look like, and islam itself. Lesson to be learned which is still very relevant today - don't trust primitive barbarians to uphold any moral expectations just because it would be logical or nice, rather 'Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum'.
- dragonelite 2y agoOoh i thought it was because the mongols were experts of maneuver warfare.
- scott_w 2y agoBeing good at tactics can win battles. Being good at strategy can win a war. Being good at economy allows you to win war after war.
- bitcurious 2y agoThe typical phrase is “infantry wins battles, logistics wins wars.” It gets at the same idea as you. https://www.czdefence.com/article/infantry-wins-battles-logistics-wins-wars-what-about-the-engineers#:~:text=John%20J.,in%20the%20conflict%20in%20Ukraine https://www.czdefence.com/article/infantry-wins-battles-logi....
- scott_w 2y agoThat's the phrase I had in mind when I wrote it. I decided to extend it based on the experience of Pyrrhus :)
- Yeul 2y agoIt was religion that stopped the Mongols. One of their leaders converted to Islam and broke up their empire.
- scott_w 2y agoCompletely incorrect. The Mongol social structure did that without religion. Like most nomadic peoples, inheritance rules split the ownership amongst a leader’s sons, fairly equally. This is because they had people and herds, not land (hence, nomads), so it was the most sensible way of doing it. This, mixed with the fact that Russia and the Middle East are thousands of miles away from the Mongolian and Chinese capitals made it inevitable that a leader on one side of the empire would ignore their overlord on the other side. Thus, the empire would fracture quickly (and pretty much did as soon as the family ties to Genghis Khan were loose enough).
- sharpshadow 2y ago“…the deep structure of silk appear to be embedded proteins that are antiviral, and yet others that can damage the fortressing walls of bacterial cells.” “Both the fibroin that forms the silk and the sericin that binds it can hasten the healing of wounds.” “…silk without sericin, and even the sericin routinely discarded in the manufacture of silk, would be manipulated by doctors and engineers. They would create sponges and gels; films and mats of silk as scaffolds seeking to support wounds that struggle to heal; matrices for the regrowth of blood vessels and broken skin; formulations to attract cells as they migrate and regenerate.”
- t-3 2y agoNostalgic - Mongols using silk shirts to make removing arrows easier was a favorite anecdote of my World History teacher in High School. Movies and stories always make pre-gunpowder war seem like a face-to-face battle between warriors, but arrows were always the biggest killer, both in battle and through attrition due to infections and laming. Another anecdote I always remembered was that the lead balls fired by early muskets were often more deadly than modern firearms because they were so slow and heavy that when they got into the body they wouldn't pass through but instead roll around along the bones and mess up the insides, similar to the modern street lore about .22 pistols being the worst to get shot with. Cannonballs also rolled and bounced through the battlefield, taking out limbs and crushing people rather than exploding like modern artillery.
- thechao 2y ago> but arrows were always the biggest killer Do you remember your source for this? It doesn't sound right. I thought most death/injury occurred when the losing army fled, and the victorious army hunted them down. Also, just mechanically, even moderately sized armies were at least a mile long across their front; there's no way that massed volleys could've been used across the whole front, or even, really, more than a small fraction of it. > lead balls fired by early muskets were often more deadly than modern firearms If slow lead balls are deadlier than fast jacketed bullets, then modern armies would use slow lead balls. Maybe slow lead balls are more dangerous when they hit, but less dangerous overall?
- perplex 2y agoMy uncle was career officer in the Army and told me once that the M16, with its smaller faster bullet would wound the enemy, compared to the AK47 with its large slow bullet would kill, and that a wounded enemy was more expensive than a dead solider because you had to extract and care for the wounded. Not sure if there was any factual evidence behind his theory, but I found this idea fascinating when I heard it. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16#Terminal_ballistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M1...
- jilles 2y agoIf you think this is interesting, you'll love the book: The Silk Roads: A New History of the World
- dangilostmywang 2y ago[flagged]
- permo-w 2y agothis article ostentatiously hails from the Dan Brown school of unnecessary adverbs
- djmips 2y agoThere are plenty of debunking videos on YouTube but none that are particularly scientific but honestly I'm very skeptical of this silk shirt story.