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Arrogance is almost by definition against the values of scientific inquiry, and so if you see someone placing science on a quasi-religious pedestal, you’d best

Arrogance is almost by definition against the values of scientific inquiry, and so if you see someone placing science on a quasi-religious pedestal, you’d best be skeptical of whatever that person is selling. This tends to go with excessive praise of particular thinkers and the wholesale dismissal of entire fields and/or thinkers as “manifest nonsense” or some other ill-informed claptrap. If you read actual philosophy of science books and papers by real philosophers, you’ll find that the attitude is more appropriate and not so laudatory. As it should be.

lisper 3y ago
> wholesale dismissal of entire fields and/or thinkers Like what?
- keiferski 3y ago
  Like dismissing the work of Feyerabend or Wittgenstein without seemingly having read either: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=true&query=manifest%20nonsense&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=tr... I'm really not sure how seriously I'm supposed to take writings about the philosophy of science when the author thinks major thinkers in the field, like Feyerabend, are just writing gibberish. That's...not really a serious opinion, whether you agree with his ideas or not.
  - lisper 3y ago
    I read Feyerabend a long time ago. It was recommended to me by someone I deeply respect so I was predisposed to like it, but it struck me as unalloyed nonsense. It was a long time ago and I don't really remember the details any more. My impression is that Feyerabend is mostly cited by crackpots who are bitter because they are not being taken seriously. However, this question too can be settled empirically: can you point to any useful results that were produced by someone who credits them to Wittgenstein or Feyerabend? I'm not aware of any.
    - keiferski 3y ago
      It's really crazy to me that your argument is literally, "I read it a long time ago and don't remember," as if that is supposed to be convincing. Like I said, this isn't a serious discussion.
      - mistermann 3y ago
        It's like an aggregation of the worst parts of scientism manifest in one single human...I have trouble believing this is actually real, it's too far beyond what my absurdity meter can measure. I see you too were present for the former clinic he put on in the philosophy thread, that was something to see.
      - lisper 3y ago
        It wasn't meant to be convincing, it was meant to be an honest report of the situation. I don't remember the details. All I remember was that my assessment of it at the time was that it was devoid of merit, which is one of the reasons I don't remember the details. Now, there are two possibilities: one is that I was wrong, that it has merit, and if I go back and revisit it that I will see now what I missed then. The second possibility is that I got it right back in the day. But notice that we can actually use the scientific method to test this. These are hypotheses and they make predictions. In particular, the first hypothesis predicts that there should be some evidence that Feyerabend has merit. In particular, I would expect to be able to find someone who produced a useful result and credited that at least in part to his or her having read Feyerabend. I have never seen such an example. To the contrary, the only people I see citing Feyerabend are crackpots who are bitter about not being taken seriously. Of course, I haven't looked very hard either, so it's entirely possible that there are counterexamples out there. But the appropriate response is not to argue about this or impugn my character, but simply to point me to the evidence that I've missed.
        fastasucan 3y ago
        >Now, there are two possibilities: one is that I was wrong, that it has merit, and if I go back and revisit it that I will see now what I missed then. The second possibility is that I got it right back in the day. A third option is that the merit of someones worked cannot be judged from whether one person find it compelling or not.
  - BoingBoomTschak 3y ago
    About Feyerabend, a quick glance at Wikipedia (with all its massive biases) showed me a dubious character that would fit perfectly into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashionable_Nonsense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashionable_Nonsense... Actually, a search inside said book vindicated this sentiment. Anyway, when I see "philosopher" and "20th century" together, my bullshit radar gets extremely attentive.

lisper 3y ago

> wholesale dismissal of entire fields and/or thinkers Like what?

keiferski 3y ago
Like dismissing the work of Feyerabend or Wittgenstein without seemingly having read either: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=true&query=manifest%20nonsense&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=tr... I'm really not sure how seriously I'm supposed to take writings about the philosophy of science when the author thinks major thinkers in the field, like Feyerabend, are just writing gibberish. That's...not really a serious opinion, whether you agree with his ideas or not.
- lisper 3y ago
  I read Feyerabend a long time ago. It was recommended to me by someone I deeply respect so I was predisposed to like it, but it struck me as unalloyed nonsense. It was a long time ago and I don't really remember the details any more. My impression is that Feyerabend is mostly cited by crackpots who are bitter because they are not being taken seriously. However, this question too can be settled empirically: can you point to any useful results that were produced by someone who credits them to Wittgenstein or Feyerabend? I'm not aware of any.
  - keiferski 3y ago
    It's really crazy to me that your argument is literally, "I read it a long time ago and don't remember," as if that is supposed to be convincing. Like I said, this isn't a serious discussion.
    - mistermann 3y ago
      It's like an aggregation of the worst parts of scientism manifest in one single human...I have trouble believing this is actually real, it's too far beyond what my absurdity meter can measure. I see you too were present for the former clinic he put on in the philosophy thread, that was something to see.
    - lisper 3y ago
      It wasn't meant to be convincing, it was meant to be an honest report of the situation. I don't remember the details. All I remember was that my assessment of it at the time was that it was devoid of merit, which is one of the reasons I don't remember the details. Now, there are two possibilities: one is that I was wrong, that it has merit, and if I go back and revisit it that I will see now what I missed then. The second possibility is that I got it right back in the day. But notice that we can actually use the scientific method to test this. These are hypotheses and they make predictions. In particular, the first hypothesis predicts that there should be some evidence that Feyerabend has merit. In particular, I would expect to be able to find someone who produced a useful result and credited that at least in part to his or her having read Feyerabend. I have never seen such an example. To the contrary, the only people I see citing Feyerabend are crackpots who are bitter about not being taken seriously. Of course, I haven't looked very hard either, so it's entirely possible that there are counterexamples out there. But the appropriate response is not to argue about this or impugn my character, but simply to point me to the evidence that I've missed.
      - fastasucan 3y ago
        >Now, there are two possibilities: one is that I was wrong, that it has merit, and if I go back and revisit it that I will see now what I missed then. The second possibility is that I got it right back in the day. A third option is that the merit of someones worked cannot be judged from whether one person find it compelling or not.
- BoingBoomTschak 3y ago
  About Feyerabend, a quick glance at Wikipedia (with all its massive biases) showed me a dubious character that would fit perfectly into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashionable_Nonsense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fashionable_Nonsense... Actually, a search inside said book vindicated this sentiment. Anyway, when I see "philosopher" and "20th century" together, my bullshit radar gets extremely attentive.