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If that's your take, I understand your confusion. Are you supposed to leave your country when you're not happy, or should you vote and try to change it? Somet

If that's your take, I understand your confusion. Are you supposed to leave your country when you're not happy, or should you vote and try to change it? Sometimes it's better to leave, sometimes it's better to stay.

trimethylpurine 2y ago
1. You typically can't leave your country. Hardly anyone offers open immigration, especially not to blue collar workers. 2. Companies don't care about employees and almost never offer raises. It's not 1920. Even if you love your company, it's almost always best to be looking to make sure you're getting the pay that you deserve. At a company you don't even like, I think it's a disservice to your career. 3. Staying promotes bad behavior as corporations will see that they can under pay you, behave poorly, and not suffer the cost of turnover. Overall, staying seems like a loss for everyone.
Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
Not a valid comparison. People are not free to change their countries without an enormous effort almost anywhere in the world. Changing jobs is easy.
- ben_w 2y ago
  To a degree, both are easy and both are hard. I've moved country. Had to learn German as part of that[0]. Jobs… well, other Space companies do exist, but the old space companies have a reputation for being pork barrel operations. Other car companies exist, I don't know enough about them to make a judgement call there. [0] Fun fact: German is so hard that Germans have a saying which translates as "German is hard".
  - Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
    > I've moved country. You are an extremely privileged citizen of a first-world country. Try doing it as a Russian / Lebanon / Afghan, then we'll have something to talk about.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      Indeed I am. But I suspect the "can code" privilege beats the "passport" privilege. A previous employer was about 50 people, of whom about 5 were from Germany; from memory, the nationalities of the rest, excluding those from G7 states, included Nigeria, Egypt, Syria, both Israel and Palestine, Iran, both Russia and Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Turkey, both India and Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, and South Korea. A British ex girlfriend of mine thought I was ridiculously privileged for having had a Commodore 64 when I was a kid; the (also British) boyfriend before her, got into ham radio because he came from a household too poor for a telephone.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
        > But I suspect the "can code" privilege beats the "passport" privilege. It doesn't and it's not even close. Millions of Russians have left the country in protest of Putin's little victorious war. Many of them are very adept at coding, and no, almost all of them face severe problems of every kind (banking, visas, residency, air flights, etc) because of the wrong color of their passports. And for people from non-European countries it is even worse.
        ben_w 2y ago
        It would be selection bias to point out that none of the Russians I've worked with mentioned any such problems. Even of the non-Europeans, only the Nigerian mentioned an issue. Oh, just realised I forgot about the Mexicans, Brazilians, and Argentinian in the previous list. A completely unrelated Russian has mentioned that his parents had to explain to the Russian conscription department that he wasn't in the country, but that's as close as it gets. Still, like I said, selection bias. I can only see the ones who could get out.

trimethylpurine 2y ago

1. You typically can't leave your country. Hardly anyone offers open immigration, especially not to blue collar workers. 2. Companies don't care about employees and almost never offer raises. It's not 1920. Even if you love your company, it's almost always best to be looking to make sure you're getting the pay that you deserve. At a company you don't even like, I think it's a disservice to your career. 3. Staying promotes bad behavior as corporations will see that they can under pay you, behave poorly, and not suffer the cost of turnover. Overall, staying seems like a loss for everyone.

Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago

Not a valid comparison. People are not free to change their countries without an enormous effort almost anywhere in the world. Changing jobs is easy.

ben_w 2y ago
To a degree, both are easy and both are hard. I've moved country. Had to learn German as part of that[0]. Jobs… well, other Space companies do exist, but the old space companies have a reputation for being pork barrel operations. Other car companies exist, I don't know enough about them to make a judgement call there. [0] Fun fact: German is so hard that Germans have a saying which translates as "German is hard".
- Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
  > I've moved country. You are an extremely privileged citizen of a first-world country. Try doing it as a Russian / Lebanon / Afghan, then we'll have something to talk about.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Indeed I am. But I suspect the "can code" privilege beats the "passport" privilege. A previous employer was about 50 people, of whom about 5 were from Germany; from memory, the nationalities of the rest, excluding those from G7 states, included Nigeria, Egypt, Syria, both Israel and Palestine, Iran, both Russia and Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Turkey, both India and Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, and South Korea. A British ex girlfriend of mine thought I was ridiculously privileged for having had a Commodore 64 when I was a kid; the (also British) boyfriend before her, got into ham radio because he came from a household too poor for a telephone.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 2y ago
      > But I suspect the "can code" privilege beats the "passport" privilege. It doesn't and it's not even close. Millions of Russians have left the country in protest of Putin's little victorious war. Many of them are very adept at coding, and no, almost all of them face severe problems of every kind (banking, visas, residency, air flights, etc) because of the wrong color of their passports. And for people from non-European countries it is even worse.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        It would be selection bias to point out that none of the Russians I've worked with mentioned any such problems. Even of the non-Europeans, only the Nigerian mentioned an issue. Oh, just realised I forgot about the Mexicans, Brazilians, and Argentinian in the previous list. A completely unrelated Russian has mentioned that his parents had to explain to the Russian conscription department that he wasn't in the country, but that's as close as it gets. Still, like I said, selection bias. I can only see the ones who could get out.