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How did Ancient Greek music sound?
- asfodelsu 2y agoLook at Greek composer and researcher Halaris also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3AbylWGjog&list=PL-7hwegJPkZ9f0mbYddDHPWh3sLzAyAVi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3AbylWGjog&list=PL-7hwegJPk...
- divbzero 2y agoReminds me of what my friend who studied classics said: that we don’t know for sure how Greek and Latin actually sounded like in ancient times.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nescioquid 2y agoGiving your friend the benefit of the doubt, sometimes one gets the wrong perspective from a careful, qualified statement. W. Sidney Allen wrote Vox Graeca[1] and Vox Latina which are well-known works which detail both what we know about pronunciation as well as explaining how we came to know these things. We surely don't know everything and scholarship evolves, but it is hardly like what you seem to be suggesting. It is interesting to know about some of the sources: ancient grammarians wrote about pronunciation, people poked fun at how other people talked in letters, epigraphers sometimes made mistakes on the order of "could of". [1] https://www.cambridge.org/us/universitypress/subjects/classical-studies/classical-languages/vox-graeca-pronunciation-classical-greek-3rd-edition https://www.cambridge.org/us/universitypress/subjects/classi...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- primitivesuave 2y agoRelated: Sid Meier used a modern rendition of the First Delphic Hymns to Apollo (the earliest known instance of recorded sheet music) as the background music in Civilization 3. https://youtu.be/0iwPolnMXEc?si=ZlVPcClhT_aOK4tu&t=55 https://youtu.be/0iwPolnMXEc?si=ZlVPcClhT_aOK4tu&t=55
- TheRealPomax 2y agoTitle should be "Rediscovering Ancient Greek Music (2017)"
- enriquto 2y agoI'm really confused by the aulos... How does such a short pipe produce these low notes? By the looks of it I would expect it to sound two octaves higher.
- alamortsubite 2y agoIndeed. The first aulete touches on this. He mentions the bore of his deer-bone pipes is larger than that of later double-pipes, which were made of wood, and when the second aulete plays the latter, the pitch is notably sharper. Not a thorough explanation of the perceived disparity, but the instruments might also seem a bit shorter on video than they actually are.
- kubeia 2y agoFor another take on reconstructing ancient greek music, you should look at the work of Annie Bélis (mostly in french but she has a wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_B%C3%A9lis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_B%C3%A9lis) and the musical ensemble - Kérylos - that she created https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHzK2yVKDmpWEC-igDSeOYg https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHzK2yVKDmpWEC-igDSeOYg "Founded at the beginning of the 90s, the Ensemble Kérylos, directed by Annie Bélis, is dedicated to Ancient Greek and Roman Music. It plays only authentic scores as accurately as possible, using instruments that are faithfully reconstructed."
- Oarch 2y agoAlso check out modern recreations of the hydraulis. A unique Ancient Greek instrument that was apparently the early forerunner of the organ.
- pcthrowaway 2y agoThat performance around the 8m40s mark is truly impressive.
- openrisk 2y agoAn interesting question is how much of ancient greek music might be still with us (without being explicitly identified as such). With the collapse of the ancient world and the spread of Christianity in the Eastern Med various elements of the Grecoroman civilization were actively supressed, but evidently not all (e.g. the language survived and evolved). Some terminology around musical modes that developed in medieval Europe is attributed to ancient Greece but its not clear how close the musical connection between these two worlds. On the other hand, Byzantine chant and a rich collection of folk musics are still practiced in the broader region and may be echoes of that earlier musical universe.
- ZeljkoS 2y agoIf you like this video, you will probably also like Peter Pringle's The Epic Of Gilgamesh In Sumerian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUcTsFe1PVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUcTsFe1PVs
- maremmano 2y agoEvery year, for about 10 years, I have spent a month's holiday in Greece, in the Cyclades, in Crete. Visiting Greece, especially the more remote regions, is an experience that I recommend to everyone. It is a journey into the past that only some regions of the world can still offer. There are places in the Peloponnese where you can really breathe in the history. Lately I've been very interested in ancient (and not so ancient) Greek music. It's not easy to find really original sounds (not heavy modernization) so this post is really welcome. Thank you
- lm28469 2y agoIt's true for most countries tbh, mass tourism became the norm but step out of it and you're in for an amazing time, even in your own country
- Forgeties79 2y agoJust remember that you are still a tourist in these places and be extra respectful!
- aliasxneo 2y agoWould you mind giving some additional recommendations? I found the music in this link captivating. I would love to hear more of these original sounds.
- andoando 2y agoCheck out some Armenian music. We have a lot of practioners of the duduk for example which goes back 1500-2000 years. https://youtu.be/E2q5PZqqZek?si=nV-_ESM3BT4dDTzK https://youtu.be/E2q5PZqqZek?si=nV-_ESM3BT4dDTzK https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z2KglJSZGZE&pp=ygUWYW5jaWVudCBhcm1lbmlhbiBtdXNpYw%3D%3D https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z2KglJSZGZE&pp=ygUWYW5jaWVudCB...
- tomcam 2y agoThat first video by Canberk Ulaş is a revelation. Wow. The music is as good as it gets. Albioni's music is sensational, and Canberk Ulaş plays with both artistic and technical mastery. The wind player in me freaks out seeing his cheeks blown out to cartoony proportions, which as I understand may be considered good form, but still.
- bigyikes 2y agoSomeone in the video talks about Homer as though he were the author of the epics. My impression was that these epics came about via oral tradition, with centuries of recitation by bards. Maybe this idea was just put in my head by Julian Jaynes in The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind? It’s a great book that was recommended to me by a HN comment last year. Besides being all the more relevant in the age of non-conscious language models, the book also makes the case that Homeric epics were not created consciously. Instead, Jaynes claims, these poems originated in the unconscious right hemisphere and were blindly recited by those who could not ignore the metered, schizophrenic prose forced upon them by their bicameral mind. Anyway, the video is neat, and it makes me all the more curious what it would’ve been like to hear one of these in 600 BC.
- AdmiralAsshat 2y agoThat was the theory of Milman Parry, who made visits to Yugoslavia and other areas of Eastern Europe where oral poetry was still widely practiced, and noted similarities between the form of the existing traditions and that of Homer. I haven't studied it seriously since college, but among evidence to support this theory is the idea that many of the titles used to describe the heroes may have been formulaic mnemonic aids that the singer/poet could keep in their back pocket and pull out during improvisation to fit the required meter.
- coldtea 2y ago>Someone in the video talks about Homer as though he were the author of the epics. My impression was that these epics came about via oral tradition, with centuries of recitation by bards. That the epics pre-existed is true, that Homer was a singular author with specific "voice" (not just someone who wrote them down) is debated (and favored iirc). >Instead, Jaynes claims, these poems originated in the unconscious right hemisphere and were blindly recited by those who could not ignore the metered, schizophrenic prose forced upon them by their bicameral mind. Yes, that part is bs.
- adrian_b 2y agoThe claim of not being created consciously seems much more applicable to many of the scripts of recent movies than to the Homeric Epics. The main plot lines of the epics, which are quite clever, must have been designed consciously and whoever did that should be considered the main creators of the epics. I am among those who believe that the main authors of Iliad and Odyssey must have been distinct, but they probably were members of the same family, e.g. the main author of the Odyssey might have been a niece or granddaughter of "Homer". In any case while the main authors have devised the plots, they have expressed the plot using a huge amount of verse sequences, metaphors and similes inherited via oral tradition from their ancestors and the selection of a verse sequence appropriate for a certain point in the story might have been partially non-deterministic and unconscious. Once the initial versions of the epics had been performed, it is likely that all later public performances by the main authors or by their descendants have never repeated completely identically, but with small variations in verse choices, until they have been fixed in writing. It is possible that multiple variants have been fixed in writing or the copists have made various mistakes, because the canonical variants known today have been edited in their final form only many hundreds of years later.
- mrmetanoia 2y agoYoutube for folks who prefer not to click twitter links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hOK7bU0S1Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hOK7bU0S1Y
- drooopy 2y agoI have some very basic understanding of greek, so I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But the way that they pronounce (sing) diphthongs is not quite right and I feel that makes the song sound... rougher somehow.
- titanomachy 2y agoThey are also probably trying to reproduce Ancient Greek pronunciation, which treats diphthongs differently. I believe in Ancient Greek the sounds were pronounced closer to how they are spelled, and the collapse into diphthongs happened later (nt -> d, mp -> b, ai -> e, etc.).
- verisimi 2y agoNo one knows, nor could they ever know.
- swatcoder 2y agoTo some degree that's true, to some degree it's not. Given enough of the right samples and their context, you can make strong informed guesses about pronunciation from how words are used in structured samples like poetry/plays that embed rhythm, rhyme, etc in established ways; from patterns in the way words shift over time; etc There are quite a lot of signals you can feel confident drawing from, but of course you can't get to 100% accuracy even if you had perfect insight or even heard the word spoken because pronunciation does still vary by individual, family, community, context, etc I don't know what's right here myself or how established the consensus is around what might be right, but the discussion you're responding to isn't frivolous or unreasonable on its face.
- maxglute 2y ago[flagged]
- leornere 2y agoIn a similar vein, here is a performance of Beowulf in Old English accompanied by music from an Anglo-Saxon lyre: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WcIK_8f7oQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WcIK_8f7oQ Although I don't know how much of the performance style is reconstructed. And that pipe music was fantastic. Reminds me a lot of the style of Colin Stetson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra-EsJpkG9o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra-EsJpkG9o
- GeoAtreides 2y agoAnd here's part of the epic of Gilgamesh in Sumerian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUcTsFe1PVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUcTsFe1PVs
- ddmf 2y agoThanks for the Beowulf link! The pipe music instantly reminded me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=616PssEzrqo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=616PssEzrqo
- leoc 2y agoA.Z. Foreman does reconstructions in a terrifyingly wide variety of languages https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H10k4Dps-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H10k4Dps-s , including Early Modern English https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiq6482XPE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiq6482XPE . Ioannis Stratakis at Podium-Arts https://ancientgreek.eu/ https://ancientgreek.eu/ mostly records in reconstructed Classical Greek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSbyr6ah0h8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSbyr6ah0h8 .
- ein0p 2y agoThere are a number of channels on YouTube which read old English texts in the actual Old English, the way they’d be read at the time. For some reason I enjoy this a lot. Could be because I like to track down the etymology of words, and understand why the language is the way it is, rather than just accept it in its current state. I feel like this helps me to better connect with the deeper meaning of the words and “feel” of the the language. GPT4 is pretty great at etymology btw.
- danans 2y agoIf you like this kind of stuff, you should listen to Peter Pringle singing the Epic of Gilgamesh while playing a reconstructed oud. While the melodies/rhythms he uses are his creation, the words are from the epic itself which was itself 2000 years old by the time of Ancient Greece. https://youtu.be/QUcTsFe1PVs?si=VvXGMhmoNwtz67Ld https://youtu.be/QUcTsFe1PVs?si=VvXGMhmoNwtz67Ld
- billbrown 2y agoThere's also Michael Levy who is composing new music for ancient instruments[1] as well as playing the oldest song "Epitaph of Seikilos" on a kithara[2] [1] https://ancientlyre.com/ https://ancientlyre.com/ [2] https://michaellevy.bandcamp.com/track/epitaph-of-seikilos-complete-ancient-greek-melody-composed-by-seikilos-son-of-euterpe-1st-c-ce-arranged-for-replica-kithara-2 https://michaellevy.bandcamp.com/track/epitaph-of-seikilos-c...
- John23832 2y agoI know this may just not be my cup of tea because I have the mind of an overly stimulated modern person... but that sounded awful.
- mock-possum 2y agoI think there are some intentional reasons it sounds that way, but I think there are also some incidental reasons: The reverb in that venue is crazy - it really jumps out at me how much it sort of resolves to a tone of its own, which has to sometimes be dissonant with what’s being by played / sung. So what you’re hearing isn’t always in tune. Additionally, this is an expressive performance, so between the echo and the interpretative approach to the meter, what you’re hearing isn’t always in time either.
- 082349872349872 2y agoIf you prefer your ancient greek eurovision style: Μα Τον Δια https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5fA6dTnyrE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5fA6dTnyrE
- dylan604 2y agoThe vocals definitely did not inspire me to want to find more. However, the guy playing the pipes toward the end was very impressive. The first person got short changed in showcasing his abilities. As someone that only played a woodwind instrument in middle school through high school, I never was able to do the circular breathing. This guy was impressive to me with his ability, and I did like the song as well. Then there was the conductor, but I always laugh at the mime-like performances they put on.
- giantrobot 2y agoAt least to my ears the actual recording of the flute sounded terrible as if the venue did not have a great mic set up. On my phone I had to blast the audio just to hear the flute but then the applause was super loud. It certainly seems like the performance sounded much better live than it was recorded. The venue looks like it would have awesome acoustics for that type of performance. I don't know how much the (seemingly) poor recording quality affects your perception of the music.
- soneca 2y agoInteresting anecdote that I am not entirely sure is true, is that “classical music” genre got its name because music was the only art that we didn’t know how it was in Ancient Greece and Rome, where the term “classic” is usually applied to. So, by the time people were rediscovering the music of Bach and that type of music was growing in popularity, people decided to use “classical” for that sort of music.
- tgv 2y agoIt's somewhat "not even wrong." It's true the term classical refers back to the classical period, but it was explicitly adopted following Baroque. The style of the late 18th, early 19th century was named Classical. The rediscovery of Bach is unrelated. Western music history roughly goes like: early polyphony, Renaissance, Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Modern (where e.g. Romantic has subdivisions, and you could argue Modern is over or has many subdivisions, etc.). The current use of the term "classical music" refers to all serious, composed music.