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Actually, "Hamas should run the entire Levant" does seem to be the view of a lot of these protesters. And "opinions you dislike" is an oddly mild characterizati

by hw-guy 2y ago

Actually, "Hamas should run the entire Levant" does seem to be the view of a lot of these protesters. And "opinions you dislike" is an oddly mild characterization of the actual slaughter of gays that happens under Hamas and other Islamist regimes.

tech_ken 2y ago
> Actually, "Hamas should run the entire Levant" does seem to be the view of a lot of these protesters I suppose we must be talking to entirely different groups of protestors. I've never heard, read, or seen any evidence of direct or indirect support for Hamas at any of these events. Indeed most of my interactions with protestors indicate the opposite: many seem to be under the belief that Palestinian support for Hamas will be weaker in a fully independent Palestine, and part of their participation in the movement is predicated on that (particularly among the Palestinians I've spoken with). But there's not much I can really argue about if that's what you've encountered in your actual personal experience; I guess the people you have spoken with must be as stupid as you think.
- invalidname 2y ago
  The problem is they are delusional and don't know the history/complexity in the situation. To be clear: I'm 100% pro Palestinian state and have been since the 80s (Israeli). Still am. Hamas is the main reason a Palestinian state doesn't exist. It's the reason the far right rose in Israel. As long as it exists the cycle of death would continue. Hamas are currently delaying the ceasefire offer that was on the table because of these protests.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    That ceasefire offer is for 40 days, not a permanent one, like they—as well as the UN—have been asking for. And Netanyahu is on record stating that he will invade Rafah regardless of whether this ceasefire offer is signed or not. You can’t really blame them for being skeptical here.
    - invalidname 2y ago
      Ceasfires have a tendency to extend. If the hostages are returned Netanyahu won't be able to invade Rafah and this round will effectively be over. Forces will be withdrawn and it would be too much to restart the war effort.
      - candiodari 2y ago
        Plus, if Hamas actually does release the hostages, every country, including the US, would demand Israel back off. I don't think there's any doubt on that by anyone, not even Hamas (who seem pretty apt at predicting responses of the West in any case). Hamas wants war. That's what they're getting paid for. Gaza is not really economically viable anyway, so this is the only way they're getting paid. Billions for a constant stream of dead Palestinians.
        runarberg 2y ago
        If Hamas releases the hostages, we have no idea what would happen. Israel has shown it self to be very unpredictable and unreliable in following expectations from the international community, and the USA has shown it self to have an unconditional backing of whatever Israel does. I absolutely think that Hamas should release the hostages, immediately and unconditionally, but at the same time we have to be realistic that it is probably not going to happen without a ceasefire, and the non-civilian hostages are probably not going to be released without a permanent ceasefire and a prisoner swap. Regardless of whether Hamas wants continued war or not (which I kind of doubt as most Hamas members have civilian family members victims of the ongoing genocide) we have to realize that Israel is the main actor here and is committing a genocide. Israel, with a backing of the USA, has consistently refused ceasefires in the past, even when Hamas has shown in the past that they do release hostages during a ceasefire. I think the January ceasefire negotiations are very telling of how things usually go. Israel wants to continue the genocide and Hamas wants to keep the hostages, there is some settlements and concessions made, weeks go by, Hamas attends negotiations, Israel boycotts them, US state department blames Hamas for not wanting the deal, Hamas declares they want the deal, Netanyahu keeps insisting the war will continue regardless of deal, UN says they should make the deal, the deal falls apart, the US state department blames Hamas, the UN votes at the Security Council for a ceasefire resolution, the US veto’s it. In an environment like this, there is no way Hamas will release the hostages. Israel has to be the one that takes the first step, regardless of how unfair it may seem to you.
jjj123 2y ago
You are nit picking while ignoring their larger point: just because a state has regressive policies doesn’t mean it deserves to be oppressed, controlled, and effectively destroyed. Israel’s terror is not helping queer people in Gaza, full stop.

by hw-guy 2y ago

tech_ken 2y ago

> Actually, "Hamas should run the entire Levant" does seem to be the view of a lot of these protesters I suppose we must be talking to entirely different groups of protestors. I've never heard, read, or seen any evidence of direct or indirect support for Hamas at any of these events. Indeed most of my interactions with protestors indicate the opposite: many seem to be under the belief that Palestinian support for Hamas will be weaker in a fully independent Palestine, and part of their participation in the movement is predicated on that (particularly among the Palestinians I've spoken with). But there's not much I can really argue about if that's what you've encountered in your actual personal experience; I guess the people you have spoken with must be as stupid as you think.

invalidname 2y ago
The problem is they are delusional and don't know the history/complexity in the situation. To be clear: I'm 100% pro Palestinian state and have been since the 80s (Israeli). Still am. Hamas is the main reason a Palestinian state doesn't exist. It's the reason the far right rose in Israel. As long as it exists the cycle of death would continue. Hamas are currently delaying the ceasefire offer that was on the table because of these protests.
- runarberg 2y ago
  That ceasefire offer is for 40 days, not a permanent one, like they—as well as the UN—have been asking for. And Netanyahu is on record stating that he will invade Rafah regardless of whether this ceasefire offer is signed or not. You can’t really blame them for being skeptical here.
  - invalidname 2y ago
    Ceasfires have a tendency to extend. If the hostages are returned Netanyahu won't be able to invade Rafah and this round will effectively be over. Forces will be withdrawn and it would be too much to restart the war effort.
    - candiodari 2y ago
      Plus, if Hamas actually does release the hostages, every country, including the US, would demand Israel back off. I don't think there's any doubt on that by anyone, not even Hamas (who seem pretty apt at predicting responses of the West in any case). Hamas wants war. That's what they're getting paid for. Gaza is not really economically viable anyway, so this is the only way they're getting paid. Billions for a constant stream of dead Palestinians.
      - runarberg 2y ago
        If Hamas releases the hostages, we have no idea what would happen. Israel has shown it self to be very unpredictable and unreliable in following expectations from the international community, and the USA has shown it self to have an unconditional backing of whatever Israel does. I absolutely think that Hamas should release the hostages, immediately and unconditionally, but at the same time we have to be realistic that it is probably not going to happen without a ceasefire, and the non-civilian hostages are probably not going to be released without a permanent ceasefire and a prisoner swap. Regardless of whether Hamas wants continued war or not (which I kind of doubt as most Hamas members have civilian family members victims of the ongoing genocide) we have to realize that Israel is the main actor here and is committing a genocide. Israel, with a backing of the USA, has consistently refused ceasefires in the past, even when Hamas has shown in the past that they do release hostages during a ceasefire. I think the January ceasefire negotiations are very telling of how things usually go. Israel wants to continue the genocide and Hamas wants to keep the hostages, there is some settlements and concessions made, weeks go by, Hamas attends negotiations, Israel boycotts them, US state department blames Hamas for not wanting the deal, Hamas declares they want the deal, Netanyahu keeps insisting the war will continue regardless of deal, UN says they should make the deal, the deal falls apart, the US state department blames Hamas, the UN votes at the Security Council for a ceasefire resolution, the US veto’s it. In an environment like this, there is no way Hamas will release the hostages. Israel has to be the one that takes the first step, regardless of how unfair it may seem to you.

jjj123 2y ago

You are nit picking while ignoring their larger point: just because a state has regressive policies doesn’t mean it deserves to be oppressed, controlled, and effectively destroyed. Israel’s terror is not helping queer people in Gaza, full stop.