4 ms·

> (cities in the US for instance, generally have city benefits, but on balance require street smarts and caution) In many US cities the crime rate is below wha

> (cities in the US for instance, generally have city benefits, but on balance require street smarts and caution) In many US cities the crime rate is below what it is in rural areas. As a counterpoint: being non-Japanese and attracting the attention of the police goes very poorly. Some Japanese go out of their way to try and start trouble with foreigners, then claim you assaulted them, and bam, you're into a criminal justice system with a 99% conviction rate and some of the worst prison conditions in the developed world.

lettergram 2y ago
It’s pretty different crime. Rural crime is often “someone stole something from my yard” or “someone hit my mailbox with a bat”. City crime is “I was robbed at gun point” or “someone hit me with a bat”
- callalex 2y ago
  How did you come to that conclusion? Did you look at any published statistics or just go with your gut feeling based on stereotypes? I suspect it’s the latter, because property crime in the city outnumbers violent crime by nearly an entire order of magnitude. This isn’t even considering how a large number of property crimes go unreported since there is a near-zero chance of the police doing anything about it. Here’s an example: https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/sites/default/files/2024-03/SFPDCrimeReport_January2024_20240311.pdf https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/sites/default/files/2024-...
  - lettergram 2y ago
    Across the board urban and suburban populations have much higher (2-10x) more violent crime (depends on category). That said, many argue the robbery reporting rate is far lower rurally. Things like a broken mailbox is not at all reported. https://www.ncjrs.gov/ovc_archives/ncvrw/2017/images/en_artwork/Fact_Sheets/2017NCVRW_UrbanRural_508.pdf https://www.ncjrs.gov/ovc_archives/ncvrw/2017/images/en_artw... https://ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/ncvrw2018/info_flyers/fact_sheets/2018NCVRW_UrbanRural_508_QC.pdf https://ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/ncvrw2018/...
mitthrowaway2 2y ago
Japan's 99% conviction rate is a commonly quoted but also misleading statistic. It's misleading because it leads most readers into inferring that 99 people will be convicted out of 100 people who get charged with a crime. In fact the denominator is "people indicted by the prosecution", which is generally a small fraction of people who get arrested; more than two-thirds of cases have their charges dropped. The US conviction rate also appears low because it excludes plea bargains; if those are included, the US would also be above 99%. https://usali.org/comparative-views-of-japanese-criminal-justice/carlos-ghosn-and-japans-99-per-cent-conviction-ratenbsp-examining-japans-criminal-justice-system-from-a-comparative-perspective https://usali.org/comparative-views-of-japanese-criminal-jus... This doesn't mean Japan's criminal justice system is good, it just means that its problems are overstated, and comparable to the problems the US is also dealing with. A difference in how statistics are calculated exaggerates the real differences between the two systems.
- underlipton 2y ago
  If you're going to go into it, you have to mention that you can be held for several weeks without being formally charged. That is to say, you can suffer a Japanese jail cell for almost a month (a significant portion of the strictly-enforced 90-day visa restriction, if you're visiting) and not have done anything wrong.
  - mitthrowaway2 2y ago
    Yes, although it might be in your interest to not be formally charged, and they cannot hold you for more than 48 hours without due process. Within those 48 hours the police do have to inform you of the crime that you are suspected of (but not charged with), and if they want to hold you for longer, the police need to present their evidence to a public prosecutor. The prosecutor can request up to two 10-day extensions from a judge. The prosecutor and judge must both agree that there is sufficient evidence to grant the extension, and you will generally be present at those extension hearings. If the evidence is not sufficient for granting that extension, you will likely be released without any charges, and never factor into that 99% conviction-rate calculation. So it's not like you can just be thrown in a cell for weeks without any explanation or any rights. And while you don't have to have done anything wrong, there at least needs to be evidence that you've done something wrong. Factually-innocent people in the US who find themselves facing charges with evidence against them often end up pressured to accept a plea bargain, even if they know they're innocent. It's a failure mode that both systems have, although they handle them differently. I'm not saying it's fair, of course. A factually-innocent foreigner who doesn't understand the language, the legal system, or the situation they're in could easily slip up and end up confessing to a crime they didn't commit, or making any number of similar mistakes.

lettergram 2y ago

It’s pretty different crime. Rural crime is often “someone stole something from my yard” or “someone hit my mailbox with a bat”. City crime is “I was robbed at gun point” or “someone hit me with a bat”

callalex 2y ago
How did you come to that conclusion? Did you look at any published statistics or just go with your gut feeling based on stereotypes? I suspect it’s the latter, because property crime in the city outnumbers violent crime by nearly an entire order of magnitude. This isn’t even considering how a large number of property crimes go unreported since there is a near-zero chance of the police doing anything about it. Here’s an example: https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/sites/default/files/2024-03/SFPDCrimeReport_January2024_20240311.pdf https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/sites/default/files/2024-...
- lettergram 2y ago
  Across the board urban and suburban populations have much higher (2-10x) more violent crime (depends on category). That said, many argue the robbery reporting rate is far lower rurally. Things like a broken mailbox is not at all reported. https://www.ncjrs.gov/ovc_archives/ncvrw/2017/images/en_artwork/Fact_Sheets/2017NCVRW_UrbanRural_508.pdf https://www.ncjrs.gov/ovc_archives/ncvrw/2017/images/en_artw... https://ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/ncvrw2018/info_flyers/fact_sheets/2018NCVRW_UrbanRural_508_QC.pdf https://ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/ncvrw2018/...

mitthrowaway2 2y ago

Japan's 99% conviction rate is a commonly quoted but also misleading statistic. It's misleading because it leads most readers into inferring that 99 people will be convicted out of 100 people who get charged with a crime. In fact the denominator is "people indicted by the prosecution", which is generally a small fraction of people who get arrested; more than two-thirds of cases have their charges dropped. The US conviction rate also appears low because it excludes plea bargains; if those are included, the US would also be above 99%. https://usali.org/comparative-views-of-japanese-criminal-justice/carlos-ghosn-and-japans-99-per-cent-conviction-ratenbsp-examining-japans-criminal-justice-system-from-a-comparative-perspective https://usali.org/comparative-views-of-japanese-criminal-jus... This doesn't mean Japan's criminal justice system is good, it just means that its problems are overstated, and comparable to the problems the US is also dealing with. A difference in how statistics are calculated exaggerates the real differences between the two systems.

underlipton 2y ago
If you're going to go into it, you have to mention that you can be held for several weeks without being formally charged. That is to say, you can suffer a Japanese jail cell for almost a month (a significant portion of the strictly-enforced 90-day visa restriction, if you're visiting) and not have done anything wrong.
- mitthrowaway2 2y ago
  Yes, although it might be in your interest to not be formally charged, and they cannot hold you for more than 48 hours without due process. Within those 48 hours the police do have to inform you of the crime that you are suspected of (but not charged with), and if they want to hold you for longer, the police need to present their evidence to a public prosecutor. The prosecutor can request up to two 10-day extensions from a judge. The prosecutor and judge must both agree that there is sufficient evidence to grant the extension, and you will generally be present at those extension hearings. If the evidence is not sufficient for granting that extension, you will likely be released without any charges, and never factor into that 99% conviction-rate calculation. So it's not like you can just be thrown in a cell for weeks without any explanation or any rights. And while you don't have to have done anything wrong, there at least needs to be evidence that you've done something wrong. Factually-innocent people in the US who find themselves facing charges with evidence against them often end up pressured to accept a plea bargain, even if they know they're innocent. It's a failure mode that both systems have, although they handle them differently. I'm not saying it's fair, of course. A factually-innocent foreigner who doesn't understand the language, the legal system, or the situation they're in could easily slip up and end up confessing to a crime they didn't commit, or making any number of similar mistakes.