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I'm sure some people involved harbor antisemitic feelings. Lots of people do. If you feel threatened, I certainly can't tell you how to feel. But like 30,000 Ga

by tootie 3y ago

I'm sure some people involved harbor antisemitic feelings. Lots of people do. If you feel threatened, I certainly can't tell you how to feel. But like 30,000 Gazans have been killed and the number of people killed by ivy league protests is resting comfortably at zero. So, I think one of these things is urgent and one just isn't.

nsguy 3y ago
The intensity of the war in Gaza has declined. There is no real urgency. There is also no real solution the protesters are presenting about how we can get a ceasefire (which requires two sides to cease their fire), get the hostage situation resolved, and get Hamas ousted in Gaza. With Hamas officials stance of committing Oct 7th attacks over and over again I'm not sure where the protesters actually stand. Seemingly on the side of supporting violence against Israeli civilians while voicing concern for Palestinian civilians. Let's say the protesters get their way and their university "divests" from Israel. This is not going to help Palestinian civilians in any way. There's even a chance it results in more Palestinian suffering and death. The protesters aren't looking for a solution, they're looking to punish Israeli civilians for the war Israel started in Gaza after being attacked. That makes zero sense. If their argument is that civilians shouldn't pay the price for actions of their government then why are they so intent of exacting a price from Israeli civilians while at the same time doing zero to actually help Palestinian civilians? Not only is there no solution offered but some of the messaging calls for the destruction of Israel (i.e. the killing of Israelis which is deemed "ok"). Given it makes no sense, and given there is an overflow of hate, I think there's reasonable grounds to be worried about the hate having real world impact (and it certainly has).
- tootie 3y ago
  The war has gone quiet, but Gaza is starving, their hospitals are destroyed and Netanyahu has indicated nothing will stop him from invading Rafah. I live in NYC and do not give the slightest shit about people occupying Columbia University. They are not demanding Columbia arbitrate a cease fire, they are demanding they divest from Israel until they end Apartheid. It's a perfectly valid argument and has absolutely no basis or dependency on antisemitism.
  - wonderwonder 3y ago
    Assume these same protestors are against Iran for murdering its citizens. Or Saudi Arabia for killing a million people via famine in Yemen? Or the muslims killing hundreds of christians in Africa? Or is it for some reason only the Jews that are getting protested against for killing far less people while trying to stop a terrorist organization embedded in Gaza responsible for the rape, torture and murder of hundreds of Jews. No antisemitism here at all.
  - nsguy 3y ago
    We're going to agree to disagree. I see the usage of the term Apartheid is potentially antisemitic. This is because I consider it to be not true and therefore I consider it equivalent to other blood libels spread against Jews. To me this is masked antisemitism. I think there is more correct/factual terminology that can properly convey the problems on the ground (and there are many) without hyperbole and distortion and so when people choose to not do that I'm going to make assumptions about their motives. Gaza is not starving is also I think the objective truth right now. There is a lot of food going into Gaza. The markets are full of food and the prices have gone down significantly. That can't ensure that everyone can get it, especially if it's stolen by armed gangs or resold for profit. But yes otherwise, life in Gaza right now is terrible. I don't see the protests showing us a path forward here. Rafah is definitely a problem. It's a problem with two sides though. We have Hamas and Israel. What are the protests asking Hamas to do here?
    - tootie 3y ago
      The actual "blood libel" and similar accusations were based on completely fabricated stories. Applying the term "Apartheid" is a subjective use of language to describe observable reality. The current ruling coalition of Israel is a mix of hawks and religious extremists who hold expressly anti-Palestinian views. They have a vested interest in maintaining a Jewish majority. They are actively expanding into Palestinian territory and committing acts of violence to do so. It's not literally the same thing as South Africa, but it's similar enough to me. And it does not require any imaginary rituals nor condemnation of anyone for their faith. This is purely criticism of the Israeli government, although I'd go further to include the people who keep voting them in to power. I'll put an even finer point on it and point a finger at the ultra-orthodox community. We like to think of nice Jewish neighbors who have a menorah instead of a Christmas tree as decent, normal folks, but the ultra-orthodox are extremists in every sense of the word and thoroughly isolated from mainstream society. And they are driving the excesses of Israeli policy. And, maybe not coincidentally, if you look at the rise in anti-jewish bias attacks even in the US, ultra-orthodox make up a majority of targets.

by tootie 3y ago

nsguy 3y ago

The intensity of the war in Gaza has declined. There is no real urgency. There is also no real solution the protesters are presenting about how we can get a ceasefire (which requires two sides to cease their fire), get the hostage situation resolved, and get Hamas ousted in Gaza. With Hamas officials stance of committing Oct 7th attacks over and over again I'm not sure where the protesters actually stand. Seemingly on the side of supporting violence against Israeli civilians while voicing concern for Palestinian civilians. Let's say the protesters get their way and their university "divests" from Israel. This is not going to help Palestinian civilians in any way. There's even a chance it results in more Palestinian suffering and death. The protesters aren't looking for a solution, they're looking to punish Israeli civilians for the war Israel started in Gaza after being attacked. That makes zero sense. If their argument is that civilians shouldn't pay the price for actions of their government then why are they so intent of exacting a price from Israeli civilians while at the same time doing zero to actually help Palestinian civilians? Not only is there no solution offered but some of the messaging calls for the destruction of Israel (i.e. the killing of Israelis which is deemed "ok"). Given it makes no sense, and given there is an overflow of hate, I think there's reasonable grounds to be worried about the hate having real world impact (and it certainly has).

tootie 3y ago
The war has gone quiet, but Gaza is starving, their hospitals are destroyed and Netanyahu has indicated nothing will stop him from invading Rafah. I live in NYC and do not give the slightest shit about people occupying Columbia University. They are not demanding Columbia arbitrate a cease fire, they are demanding they divest from Israel until they end Apartheid. It's a perfectly valid argument and has absolutely no basis or dependency on antisemitism.
- wonderwonder 3y ago
  Assume these same protestors are against Iran for murdering its citizens. Or Saudi Arabia for killing a million people via famine in Yemen? Or the muslims killing hundreds of christians in Africa? Or is it for some reason only the Jews that are getting protested against for killing far less people while trying to stop a terrorist organization embedded in Gaza responsible for the rape, torture and murder of hundreds of Jews. No antisemitism here at all.
- nsguy 3y ago
  We're going to agree to disagree. I see the usage of the term Apartheid is potentially antisemitic. This is because I consider it to be not true and therefore I consider it equivalent to other blood libels spread against Jews. To me this is masked antisemitism. I think there is more correct/factual terminology that can properly convey the problems on the ground (and there are many) without hyperbole and distortion and so when people choose to not do that I'm going to make assumptions about their motives. Gaza is not starving is also I think the objective truth right now. There is a lot of food going into Gaza. The markets are full of food and the prices have gone down significantly. That can't ensure that everyone can get it, especially if it's stolen by armed gangs or resold for profit. But yes otherwise, life in Gaza right now is terrible. I don't see the protests showing us a path forward here. Rafah is definitely a problem. It's a problem with two sides though. We have Hamas and Israel. What are the protests asking Hamas to do here?
  - tootie 3y ago
    The actual "blood libel" and similar accusations were based on completely fabricated stories. Applying the term "Apartheid" is a subjective use of language to describe observable reality. The current ruling coalition of Israel is a mix of hawks and religious extremists who hold expressly anti-Palestinian views. They have a vested interest in maintaining a Jewish majority. They are actively expanding into Palestinian territory and committing acts of violence to do so. It's not literally the same thing as South Africa, but it's similar enough to me. And it does not require any imaginary rituals nor condemnation of anyone for their faith. This is purely criticism of the Israeli government, although I'd go further to include the people who keep voting them in to power. I'll put an even finer point on it and point a finger at the ultra-orthodox community. We like to think of nice Jewish neighbors who have a menorah instead of a Christmas tree as decent, normal folks, but the ultra-orthodox are extremists in every sense of the word and thoroughly isolated from mainstream society. And they are driving the excesses of Israeli policy. And, maybe not coincidentally, if you look at the rise in anti-jewish bias attacks even in the US, ultra-orthodox make up a majority of targets.