4 ms·

As someone else who is ethnically Jewish I feel there is definitely an element of antisemitism in these protests. Antisemitism isn't limited to physical attacks

by nsguy 2y ago

As someone else who is ethnically Jewish I feel there is definitely an element of antisemitism in these protests. Antisemitism isn't limited to physical attacks on Jewish people (which have been on the rise and are definitely correlated to the overall atmosphere). What do you think antisemitism is and do you really feel 100% of the protests and the protesters clearly hold no antisemitic views? I would say antisemitic views are rampant in many middle eastern communities and some subsection of the protesters and their stated views reflect that. Either way, Jewish people feel threatened (including myself).

tootie 2y ago
I'm sure some people involved harbor antisemitic feelings. Lots of people do. If you feel threatened, I certainly can't tell you how to feel. But like 30,000 Gazans have been killed and the number of people killed by ivy league protests is resting comfortably at zero. So, I think one of these things is urgent and one just isn't.
- nsguy 2y ago
  The intensity of the war in Gaza has declined. There is no real urgency. There is also no real solution the protesters are presenting about how we can get a ceasefire (which requires two sides to cease their fire), get the hostage situation resolved, and get Hamas ousted in Gaza. With Hamas officials stance of committing Oct 7th attacks over and over again I'm not sure where the protesters actually stand. Seemingly on the side of supporting violence against Israeli civilians while voicing concern for Palestinian civilians. Let's say the protesters get their way and their university "divests" from Israel. This is not going to help Palestinian civilians in any way. There's even a chance it results in more Palestinian suffering and death. The protesters aren't looking for a solution, they're looking to punish Israeli civilians for the war Israel started in Gaza after being attacked. That makes zero sense. If their argument is that civilians shouldn't pay the price for actions of their government then why are they so intent of exacting a price from Israeli civilians while at the same time doing zero to actually help Palestinian civilians? Not only is there no solution offered but some of the messaging calls for the destruction of Israel (i.e. the killing of Israelis which is deemed "ok"). Given it makes no sense, and given there is an overflow of hate, I think there's reasonable grounds to be worried about the hate having real world impact (and it certainly has).
  - tootie 2y ago
    The war has gone quiet, but Gaza is starving, their hospitals are destroyed and Netanyahu has indicated nothing will stop him from invading Rafah. I live in NYC and do not give the slightest shit about people occupying Columbia University. They are not demanding Columbia arbitrate a cease fire, they are demanding they divest from Israel until they end Apartheid. It's a perfectly valid argument and has absolutely no basis or dependency on antisemitism.
    - wonderwonder 2y ago
      Assume these same protestors are against Iran for murdering its citizens. Or Saudi Arabia for killing a million people via famine in Yemen? Or the muslims killing hundreds of christians in Africa? Or is it for some reason only the Jews that are getting protested against for killing far less people while trying to stop a terrorist organization embedded in Gaza responsible for the rape, torture and murder of hundreds of Jews. No antisemitism here at all.
    - nsguy 2y ago
      We're going to agree to disagree. I see the usage of the term Apartheid is potentially antisemitic. This is because I consider it to be not true and therefore I consider it equivalent to other blood libels spread against Jews. To me this is masked antisemitism. I think there is more correct/factual terminology that can properly convey the problems on the ground (and there are many) without hyperbole and distortion and so when people choose to not do that I'm going to make assumptions about their motives. Gaza is not starving is also I think the objective truth right now. There is a lot of food going into Gaza. The markets are full of food and the prices have gone down significantly. That can't ensure that everyone can get it, especially if it's stolen by armed gangs or resold for profit. But yes otherwise, life in Gaza right now is terrible. I don't see the protests showing us a path forward here. Rafah is definitely a problem. It's a problem with two sides though. We have Hamas and Israel. What are the protests asking Hamas to do here?
      - tootie 2y ago
        The actual "blood libel" and similar accusations were based on completely fabricated stories. Applying the term "Apartheid" is a subjective use of language to describe observable reality. The current ruling coalition of Israel is a mix of hawks and religious extremists who hold expressly anti-Palestinian views. They have a vested interest in maintaining a Jewish majority. They are actively expanding into Palestinian territory and committing acts of violence to do so. It's not literally the same thing as South Africa, but it's similar enough to me. And it does not require any imaginary rituals nor condemnation of anyone for their faith. This is purely criticism of the Israeli government, although I'd go further to include the people who keep voting them in to power. I'll put an even finer point on it and point a finger at the ultra-orthodox community. We like to think of nice Jewish neighbors who have a menorah instead of a Christmas tree as decent, normal folks, but the ultra-orthodox are extremists in every sense of the word and thoroughly isolated from mainstream society. And they are driving the excesses of Israeli policy. And, maybe not coincidentally, if you look at the rise in anti-jewish bias attacks even in the US, ultra-orthodox make up a majority of targets.
megous 2y ago
Were you attacked based on your ethnicity?
- nsguy 2y ago
  Not me personally but I have had to change my behaviour because I feel less safe and people and businesses have been attacked based on their Jewishness. This is real, it's not just in my head. I have valid reasons to feel threatened because of the rhetoric and organizations that are involved in some of the protests and the intimidation tactics use. I also think this is something the organizers could actively negate and choose not to.
  - megous 2y ago
    You mean direct threats of violence or rape, and aggressive posturing and verbal attacks, etc.? Something like this? https://www.facebook.com/reel/375773352130251 https://www.facebook.com/reel/375773352130251 Just hard to imagine what you're talking about in particular, because you write in very general way.
klyrs 2y ago
When LGBT denizens of states, universities, countries, and websites are threatened, dehumanized and scapegoated, HN is quick to defend the freedom of speech. We, too, were killed in the same camps during the Holocaust. What makes you so special, that a feeling of an "element of antisemitism" justifies police brutality in response to peaceful assembly, when threats to my livelihood are so trivially brushed away? Your ask that people not be permitted to even "hold antisemitic views" is odious in the extreme; I would never ask for such policing of wrongthink on the LGBT Question, even as it is debated in courts and legislatures across the country. Now do Islamophobia. Without insinuating that defending the freedom of religion is equivalent to support for Hamas, please.
- nsguy 2y ago
  It's a fine line. I support the right of people to express their opinion. But taking over public spaces and making threats is not that. Also hateful speech is not that. I can't control what people think but when that thinking is expressed in public on signs and in speeches that's not ok. If anti LGBTQ+ groups took over part of a university and had offensive signs and chants would you support their right for free speech? Is that sort of the analogy we're looking for here? Did that happen or did I miss it? This is not about policing people's minds. Breaking into a hall in Columbia e.g. is not free speech. I agree there should be zero police brutality against lawful protests and when laws are broken police should still pursue the least violent methods to ensure law and order.
  - klyrs 2y ago
    No, the exact same thing isn't happening, don't be daft. Rather, politicians are attempting to legislate people like me out of existence, and the lack of public protest is deafening. You're worried about some protesters in some well-demarked zones, I'm worried about state-sanctioned violence. No, these are not the same. Targeted anti-LGBT violence is on the rise. Literal book burnings are underway. Our voices are being censored. It is legal to discriminate against us in employment, as students in schools, and even as patients hospitals. I get verbally assualted in public on account of my cultural identity on a regular basis. And I live in a progressive major metropolitan city. I'm sad that Jewish people are experiencing this today, but my friend, you are late to the party. How late? It was the nation of Israel that forbade homosexuality some 3000 years ago. Before your people's story of persecution even began, we were being persecuted by your law. But it doesn't justify censorship, revoking the freedom of speech, nor the freedom of peaceful assembly. Be careful where you read about this violence, because anti-Islam is a popular sentiment amongst anti-Palestine protests, and when the cops start a fight with or between protesters, they're writing history.

by nsguy 2y ago

tootie 2y ago

I'm sure some people involved harbor antisemitic feelings. Lots of people do. If you feel threatened, I certainly can't tell you how to feel. But like 30,000 Gazans have been killed and the number of people killed by ivy league protests is resting comfortably at zero. So, I think one of these things is urgent and one just isn't.

nsguy 2y ago
The intensity of the war in Gaza has declined. There is no real urgency. There is also no real solution the protesters are presenting about how we can get a ceasefire (which requires two sides to cease their fire), get the hostage situation resolved, and get Hamas ousted in Gaza. With Hamas officials stance of committing Oct 7th attacks over and over again I'm not sure where the protesters actually stand. Seemingly on the side of supporting violence against Israeli civilians while voicing concern for Palestinian civilians. Let's say the protesters get their way and their university "divests" from Israel. This is not going to help Palestinian civilians in any way. There's even a chance it results in more Palestinian suffering and death. The protesters aren't looking for a solution, they're looking to punish Israeli civilians for the war Israel started in Gaza after being attacked. That makes zero sense. If their argument is that civilians shouldn't pay the price for actions of their government then why are they so intent of exacting a price from Israeli civilians while at the same time doing zero to actually help Palestinian civilians? Not only is there no solution offered but some of the messaging calls for the destruction of Israel (i.e. the killing of Israelis which is deemed "ok"). Given it makes no sense, and given there is an overflow of hate, I think there's reasonable grounds to be worried about the hate having real world impact (and it certainly has).
- tootie 2y ago
  The war has gone quiet, but Gaza is starving, their hospitals are destroyed and Netanyahu has indicated nothing will stop him from invading Rafah. I live in NYC and do not give the slightest shit about people occupying Columbia University. They are not demanding Columbia arbitrate a cease fire, they are demanding they divest from Israel until they end Apartheid. It's a perfectly valid argument and has absolutely no basis or dependency on antisemitism.
  - wonderwonder 2y ago
    Assume these same protestors are against Iran for murdering its citizens. Or Saudi Arabia for killing a million people via famine in Yemen? Or the muslims killing hundreds of christians in Africa? Or is it for some reason only the Jews that are getting protested against for killing far less people while trying to stop a terrorist organization embedded in Gaza responsible for the rape, torture and murder of hundreds of Jews. No antisemitism here at all.
  - nsguy 2y ago
    We're going to agree to disagree. I see the usage of the term Apartheid is potentially antisemitic. This is because I consider it to be not true and therefore I consider it equivalent to other blood libels spread against Jews. To me this is masked antisemitism. I think there is more correct/factual terminology that can properly convey the problems on the ground (and there are many) without hyperbole and distortion and so when people choose to not do that I'm going to make assumptions about their motives. Gaza is not starving is also I think the objective truth right now. There is a lot of food going into Gaza. The markets are full of food and the prices have gone down significantly. That can't ensure that everyone can get it, especially if it's stolen by armed gangs or resold for profit. But yes otherwise, life in Gaza right now is terrible. I don't see the protests showing us a path forward here. Rafah is definitely a problem. It's a problem with two sides though. We have Hamas and Israel. What are the protests asking Hamas to do here?
    - tootie 2y ago
      The actual "blood libel" and similar accusations were based on completely fabricated stories. Applying the term "Apartheid" is a subjective use of language to describe observable reality. The current ruling coalition of Israel is a mix of hawks and religious extremists who hold expressly anti-Palestinian views. They have a vested interest in maintaining a Jewish majority. They are actively expanding into Palestinian territory and committing acts of violence to do so. It's not literally the same thing as South Africa, but it's similar enough to me. And it does not require any imaginary rituals nor condemnation of anyone for their faith. This is purely criticism of the Israeli government, although I'd go further to include the people who keep voting them in to power. I'll put an even finer point on it and point a finger at the ultra-orthodox community. We like to think of nice Jewish neighbors who have a menorah instead of a Christmas tree as decent, normal folks, but the ultra-orthodox are extremists in every sense of the word and thoroughly isolated from mainstream society. And they are driving the excesses of Israeli policy. And, maybe not coincidentally, if you look at the rise in anti-jewish bias attacks even in the US, ultra-orthodox make up a majority of targets.

megous 2y ago

Were you attacked based on your ethnicity?

nsguy 2y ago
Not me personally but I have had to change my behaviour because I feel less safe and people and businesses have been attacked based on their Jewishness. This is real, it's not just in my head. I have valid reasons to feel threatened because of the rhetoric and organizations that are involved in some of the protests and the intimidation tactics use. I also think this is something the organizers could actively negate and choose not to.
- megous 2y ago
  You mean direct threats of violence or rape, and aggressive posturing and verbal attacks, etc.? Something like this? https://www.facebook.com/reel/375773352130251 https://www.facebook.com/reel/375773352130251 Just hard to imagine what you're talking about in particular, because you write in very general way.

klyrs 2y ago

When LGBT denizens of states, universities, countries, and websites are threatened, dehumanized and scapegoated, HN is quick to defend the freedom of speech. We, too, were killed in the same camps during the Holocaust. What makes you so special, that a feeling of an "element of antisemitism" justifies police brutality in response to peaceful assembly, when threats to my livelihood are so trivially brushed away? Your ask that people not be permitted to even "hold antisemitic views" is odious in the extreme; I would never ask for such policing of wrongthink on the LGBT Question, even as it is debated in courts and legislatures across the country. Now do Islamophobia. Without insinuating that defending the freedom of religion is equivalent to support for Hamas, please.

nsguy 2y ago
It's a fine line. I support the right of people to express their opinion. But taking over public spaces and making threats is not that. Also hateful speech is not that. I can't control what people think but when that thinking is expressed in public on signs and in speeches that's not ok. If anti LGBTQ+ groups took over part of a university and had offensive signs and chants would you support their right for free speech? Is that sort of the analogy we're looking for here? Did that happen or did I miss it? This is not about policing people's minds. Breaking into a hall in Columbia e.g. is not free speech. I agree there should be zero police brutality against lawful protests and when laws are broken police should still pursue the least violent methods to ensure law and order.
- klyrs 2y ago
  No, the exact same thing isn't happening, don't be daft. Rather, politicians are attempting to legislate people like me out of existence, and the lack of public protest is deafening. You're worried about some protesters in some well-demarked zones, I'm worried about state-sanctioned violence. No, these are not the same. Targeted anti-LGBT violence is on the rise. Literal book burnings are underway. Our voices are being censored. It is legal to discriminate against us in employment, as students in schools, and even as patients hospitals. I get verbally assualted in public on account of my cultural identity on a regular basis. And I live in a progressive major metropolitan city. I'm sad that Jewish people are experiencing this today, but my friend, you are late to the party. How late? It was the nation of Israel that forbade homosexuality some 3000 years ago. Before your people's story of persecution even began, we were being persecuted by your law. But it doesn't justify censorship, revoking the freedom of speech, nor the freedom of peaceful assembly. Be careful where you read about this violence, because anti-Islam is a popular sentiment amongst anti-Palestine protests, and when the cops start a fight with or between protesters, they're writing history.